Ableton Forum

Angstrom wrote:... why B# is actually a quite real note and yet still different from C.

...oh shit

simmerdown wrote:...while on the topic

how can i transpose from B# to C ?

this has been keeping me up at night

thanks!

throw a 'capo' at it. changing the root is a different animal than changing tonalities.

Can this thread be stickied?

damn, i missed the screen, my hand is all sticky though....

There is no key of B#, but B# is indeed a functionally different note from C.

As vanilla key signatures go (no chromatics) B# only appears in the key of C# as the seventh scale degree, or leading tone.

C of course functions as various scale degrees in various keys.

... and A Sharp Natural Minor, A & C Sharp Harmonic Minor, A, D & C Sharp Melodic Minor... or am I looking at it wrong?

functionally different, but is it tonally different?

like theoretical physics...comes a point where its not really math anymore is it?

gjm wrote:... and A Sharp Natural Minor, A & C Sharp Harmonic Minor, A, D & C Sharp Melodic Minor... or am I looking at it wrong?

Yeah I missed those in my haste to get back to my pint.

C# minor would also have a B# yes, in order to make the V chord major and thus function as Dominant (G#-B#-D#).

A# minor would also have a B# to function as scale degree 2. And A# minor is a real key, having seven sharps and being the relative minor of C# major.

simmerdown wrote:functionally different, but is it tonally different?

Define "tonally."

Is suspect you mean "audibly (in equal temperament)."

good grief!

Words and terminology matter. The language of western music has been transmitted via specific terms for centuries now and while some have evolved over time we need a coherent means of expressing musical concepts.

"Tonal" is very interchangeable with "functional" when it come to western music theory, because tonal harmony is dependent on certain functional relationships that exist within its system.

funken wrote:

funken wrote:

gjm wrote:
With that in mind, when discussing or advising on transposition in the light of techniques used within Live, it might be helpful to first examine what happens with the notes in a chord when using using your technique or when using Lives Transpose knob.

I'll look into the rest but can you point me in the right direction on this bit?

gjm?

Not meaning to be trite, but this is a good book http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-G ... 1592574378

At the risk of oversimplifying, a chord is made up of 3 or more notes. These notes are related to a scale. These notes have an order in which they appear within the chord. An A Minor Chord is made up by using 3 notes A-C-E which appear in a certain order and are related to a certain scale. An A Major chord that is built using the same note structure and order as the A Minor would be A-C#-E. Now, using an A Minor Chord, try and move each of the notes in the piano roll so as to make an A Major chord that has the same note order and structure as the A Minor. What happens? The closest you will get is to move the A Minor 3 steps down the piano roll and hit F#-A-C#. In doing this you will find that you have lost the E which is part of the A Major triad. When transposing a chord, you are keeping its structure in tact while shifting it relative to something else, usually a key signature. Now it is true that in shifting the notes in the A Minor chord (which are related to a certain scale) you have found notes from a new scale, A Major, Yes. But can you also say that you have transposed the A Minor to an A Major? No. Why? Because you have not made a new chord from the old notes that keeps in tact the same structure between the 2 chords. So you would have to ask yourself, what it happening to the notes when using various methods to transpose them and what rules or conventions are being adhered to or broken.

Its late and I have to catch some sleep... hope it makes sense, will check in tomorrow

If you transpose an audio clip up 2 it will only work if it does not contain chords if you are moving from major to minor or vice-versa.

Check my reply from like 2 days with an exact description of how to do this transposition with both midi and audio!

ian_halsall wrote:If you transpose an audio clip up 2 it will only work if it does not contain chords if you are moving from major to minor or vice-versa.

Check my reply from like 2 days with an exact description of how to do this transposition with both midi and audio!

rubbish

funken wrote:Let's say you had an audio file playing A minor and C major chords, and you transposed it up 2 semitones. It would be playing B minor and D, so I cant see a problem with that.

I'm on the iPhone so I can't type much...

a song with C and Am is what I call relative major or relative minor modulations. transposing up just changes the key you're modulating in. Pink Floyd did a lot of Em to G modulations, for example, basic, moody, easy to jam to.

all respect but it worries me that you're making a web site to teach people. the web used to be a pretty good place to learn until that kind of site started popping up.