"Bitch fight"- DeadMau5,Skrillex&co-get some popcorn

[Machinesworking]

I'm not knocking the reasons why people get pleasure from rock concerts. Each to their own. But I will not accept that such concerts sound superior to anything, which is what you are getting yourself in a right old muddle trying to prove.

As someone who loves music and sound, this really does make me a very sad man indeed.

16 bit 44.1khz or for that matter even DVD quality 24bit 96khz playback may not be noticeable to you, but to a lot of people it is.
Sweet spot, bad PA, mediocre playing etc. are all great excuses for your hatred of live music, but the simple undeniable fact is the sample rate of recordings is a compromise. Of course the stereo separation is better in a recording, but if you think cymbal splashes sound better on recording than through a PA..... wow? Are you saying you really can't tell any difference between someone playing a CD in a live performance and the band actually playing? or that you think that bands who mimic live playing to a CD or laptop playing the mixdown sounds better? That, my friend is sad.

[beatmunga]

16 bit 44.1khz or for that matter even DVD quality 24bit 96khz playback may not be noticeable to you, but to a lot of people it is.
Sweet spot, bad PA, mediocre playing etc. are all great excuses for your hatred of live music, but the simple undeniable fact is the sample rate of recordings is a compromise

16 bit 44.1khz is the least of your worries when you are capturing sound waves with the likes of SM58s and AKG D112s. Their frequency responses are rubbish. And this is just the start of the chain.

if you think cymbal splashes sound better on recording than through a PA..... wow? Are you saying you really can't tell any difference between someone playing a CD in a live performance and the band actually playing? or that you think that bands who mimic live playing to a CD or laptop playing the mixdown sounds better? That, my friend is sad

I most definitely can tell a massive difference. The CD/laptop sounds better. Every time. If it didn't, recording studios wouldn't need to exist, surely? We are going round in circles, here.

Are you suggesting that the audio path at a rock gig is so pure that the mere fact that studio recordings are stored as digital information will render them inferior? When many live desks these days are digital anyway? I really don't know how to engage you with anything remotely approaching a sensible argument on this. I can only guess that you are insulted/disturbed that someone does not value an aesthetic experience which you hold very dear.

You really should open a 6 pack, put your feet up, watch Spinal Tap and relax. Taking the piss out of heavy rock is nothing new, and is never going away.

Out of interest, what are you using Ableton Live for, machinesworking? How can you possibly live with its inherent digital limitations?

[Machinesworking]

I most definitely can tell a massive difference. The CD/laptop sounds better. Every time. If it didn't, recording studios wouldn't need to exist, surely? We are going round in circles, here.

We are, you can't hear the aliasing and limitations of 16bit 44.1khz when pumped through a huge PA and are comparing it to the limited frequency ranges of microphones.... I don't agree with that analogy at all.
I have no problems with CDs as far as listening to music on stereo systems, and there are of course huge advantages to recorded music listened to in a treated room with expensive equipment, but none of that takes away from the extended range of a $100,000+ PA system, or even a $25,000 one dynamically and especially in the low end. You don't appreciate that apparently because it's coming at the cost of hours of mix down and perfectly applied compression to get the dynamic range to work within the volume levels of your average stereo system. Rock music works better live I think because the dynamic range is broader and there's no summing issues, or compression needed at the volumes it's played at, coupled with a larger sample rate... but yeah, I think we can agree to disagree because at this point you're throwing ad homonym attacks which I find pretty boring to deal with really.

[beatmunga]

Rock music works better live I think because the dynamic range is broader and there's no summing issues, or compression needed at the volumes it's played at, coupled with a larger sample rate

What does this actually mean, machinesworking? Because I've re-read this sentence a few times and I'll admit, I'm struggling...

Big, clean systems are good. Perfect, in fact, for playing music that has been lovingly crafted with TLC and no compromises in the recording studio.

But you cannot polish a turd, no matter how big your woofers are.

(You may have guessed, but I do not respectfully agree to disagree. Because you are talking utter nonsense. And it is irresponsible to talk such nonsense on a public forum where some less experienced people may believe you. You may want to think about that.)

[Machinesworking]

Rock music works better live I think because the dynamic range is broader and there's no summing issues, or compression needed at the volumes it's played at, coupled with a larger sample rate

What does this actually mean, machinesworking? Because I've re-read this sentence a few times and I'll admit, I'm struggling...

Big, clean systems are good. Perfect, in fact, for playing music that has been lovingly crafted with TLC and no compromises in the recording studio.

But you cannot polish a turd, no matter how big your woofers are.

(You may have guessed, but I do not respectfully agree to disagree. Because you are talking utter nonsense. And it is irresponsible to talk such nonsense on a public forum where some less experienced people may believe you. You may want to think about that.)

In order to mix down music to any recording format, in order for music mixed down to be played on the various systems various parts of it are compressed, limited and EQ'd to limit the spectrum for which it takes up etc. you have to be aware of that. All this cutting of frequencies, smashing of dynamic ranges and such is necessary to a degree, but none of it, including limiting the sample rate of the entire mix to 16bit 44.1khz is going to result in the sound having a fuller frequency spectrum, it's going to do the opposite. Whether or not you like the limited dynamic range and limited by frequency range EQ-ing that happens in a recorded CD or not is irrelevant, a live band through a decent PA has a lot more going on, and there isn't any logical argument against that, except for the fact that you like the well crafted 'sound' of a CD. Granted a recording is more likely to sound good, but as I said, music made to be performed live tends to sound better live. Probably because the songwriting itself is influenced by the overlapping of frequencies, extreme dynamics and general blurring of the stereo field that happens at live shows.

I think that pretty much sums up both of our points, and now I'm off to see some live music.

[Linear Phase]

THE THREAD IS NOW ABOUT BIT DEPTH

THE NERDS HAVE BEGUN THEIR ASSAULT

FALL BACK!

FALL BACK!

[beatmunga]

Whether or not you like the limited dynamic range and limited by frequency range EQ-ing that happens in a recorded CD or not is irrelevant, a live band through a decent PA has a lot more going on...but as I said, music made to be performed live tends to sound better live. Probably because the songwriting itself is influenced by the overlapping of frequencies

Overlapping frequencies, particularly in the lower bands, tend to sound unpleasant. Thats why basslines tend to be monophonic - we don't strum a chord with them, it would sound pants.

Sculpting each sound with judicious and subtractive EQ so that it occupies its own space is standard practice for clarity and detail in an overall mix, studio or live. Are you suggesting that the eq knobs on the expensive live desks at a big rock gig go largely untouched? If they are, that is probably because the guitarists best mate, who has been assigned as live sound engineer, doesn't have a clue. Accident, not design. But a good pro live sound engineer will still be thinking in terms of a final 'mix', probably stereo - just one going to a PA rather than a recorder.

So, on to this bizzare issue you have with recording:

limiting the sample rate of the entire mix to 16bit 44.1khz is (not) going to result in the sound having a fuller frequency spectrum, it's going to do the opposite

Of course, theoretically. But practically, lets think about the following scenario:

A hard rock band, sounding awesome to you are playing a song at a live gig. You love the sound coming out of the speakers.

A decent CD recorder is, unbeknownst to you, recording the exact same signal that is driving the speakers and converting it to a 16 bit 44.1 khz wav.

When they finish the song, the CD is played back directly into the speakers. You are appalled by the degradation in the sound - it is a shadow of its former self.

I think we both know that this is just silly. The fact that you choose to pin such an idea on the most lo-fi, nasal, thin, unsubtle style of music out there is bordering on the hilarious.

You may also have to come to terms with the fact that, as someone who has spent a lot of time at loud rock gigs, your hearing has been permanently compromised in terms of hi-end frequency response....

I think that pretty much sums up both of our points, and now I'm off to see some live music.

Next time you are at a hard rock gig machinesworking, try something out. Close your eyes for a while. Use your ears without them being too influenced by your other senses. Realise that the sound is less than perfect, say fuck it anyway, get drunk and start headbanging and having a ball all the same.

Oh, and I'll be the judge of whether my own point has been summed up by you or not, thank you very much.

At the moment, it most definitely has not.

Do these Jedi mind tricks generally serve you well?

Enjoy your gig anyway. You'd better keep your fingers crossed that there is no nasty digital stuff like guitar pedals, desks, processors, crossovers etc in your precious audio chain or your night is going to be ruined...

[regretfullySaid]

+1 for Merzbow

[ze2be]

If artists are getting worked up by cheasy, brain dead pop acts bitching each other in public media, then maybe their music aint exactly geniously clever either. How else would one get musicly insulted from the likes of Justin Bieber and Maroon 5?

Its all a big LOL at best.

[regretfullySaid]

And for those who do a lot more than just push play a bunch of times on little squares and tweak fx, why get offended? You're not who he's talking about.

A few nights ago there was a streaming youtube afterhours video I decided to check out. I didn't know what it was going to be, but I wasn't expecting a Train concert. First I didn't know they were still around and second I didn't realize they had the kind of fanbase they had.
Listening and watching them play was more offensive than anything, then to top it off fans in the chatroom making requests....bleh
I can't believe they're not Canadian, but I guess that's an insult to Canadians, sorry.
And the lead singer looked tired and bored, at one point he asked the audience, "does anyone remember this song?" like he was upset they didn't respond to it like he wanted. Of course they cheered, but he just looked like "yeah, I thought so".
Another dick thing to do as a performer is keep your phone in your hand and occasionally look at it while you're performing. Whether it's related to the task at hand or not, fuck off.

[rikhyray]

In case you missed that piece of news as I did and most unfortunately was exposed to THAT today
"from BJ to DJ"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz4FGDpS ... re=related

[cmcpress]

It's all about being there in the moment. The dynamic between the crowd and the musician. Recorded music completely destroys that dynamic - more so with overly produced music which is about making every note artificially perfect.

Again, for some of people the cringe-making embarrassment of the 'dynamic' at a concert can completely destroy ones ability to enjoy the sound waves emanating from the speakers.

I realise that this may be hard for some people to understand.

it's not all about volume. Maybe in Rock. By "Dynamic" - I mean the relationship between crowd and audience - not in terms of dynamic range.

For example - there's a great acoustic night in London at the Spice of Life on Monday's - it's a mixed bag, but when you're there, and if the musicianship is there - it can be much more, hesitate to use the word but it's the only one I can think of - transcendent. It definitely is. OK - so 60% of the acts aren't great - 30% are merely ok - but 9% are great and 1% truly excellent. One day we were there and this Japanese guy walks in with a harmonica. No idea who he is, or what his name is now - but his performance totally blew me away - he was like the Hendrix of the accordion. and I fucking hate the sound of the accordion normally - but in this guy's hands - fucking awesome.

Performance is much more than about being pitch perfect - it's about emotion - and that's something which appears to have been lost to a degree in modern popular music - or at least recreated artificially in terms of bands like Alabama shakes who are merely ripping off classics from 40-50 years ago.

Even in the case of Janelle Monae - her performance of Tightrope on Letterman was far better than the single which robbed the track of all the life. Watch that performance - it starts off slightly reticent but by the end - fuck! chills. She stole her moves from James Brown, but fuck does she do them well.

What's great about natural drummers is that they vary in time - if they're good drummers, they'll vary in time in a skillful way as to add emotion and impetus to the music - if they're shit then it'll all fall apart. Seeing a good drummer interact with good musicians - or even bands who maybe aren't technically great - but who gel together well - there's nothing like it.

In the same way as at a football concert too - the crowd and the atmosphere play a part.

[cmcpress]

Whether or not you like the limited dynamic range and limited by frequency range EQ-ing that happens in a recorded CD or not is irrelevant, a live band through a decent PA has a lot more going on...but as I said, music made to be performed live tends to sound better live. Probably because the songwriting itself is influenced by the overlapping of frequencies

Overlapping frequencies, particularly in the lower bands, tend to sound unpleasant. Thats why basslines tend to be monophonic - we don't strum a chord with them, it would sound pants.

Sculpting each sound with judicious and subtractive EQ so that it occupies its own space is standard practice for clarity and detail in an overall mix, studio or live. Are you suggesting that the eq knobs on the expensive live desks at a big rock gig go largely untouched? If they are, that is probably because the guitarists best mate, who has been assigned as live sound engineer, doesn't have a clue. Accident, not design. But a good pro live sound engineer will still be thinking in terms of a final 'mix', probably stereo - just one going to a PA rather than a recorder.

So, on to this bizzare issue you have with recording:

limiting the sample rate of the entire mix to 16bit 44.1khz is (not) going to result in the sound having a fuller frequency spectrum, it's going to do the opposite

Of course, theoretically. But practically, lets think about the following scenario:

A hard rock band, sounding awesome to you are playing a song at a live gig. You love the sound coming out of the speakers.

A decent CD recorder is, unbeknownst to you, recording the exact same signal that is driving the speakers and converting it to a 16 bit 44.1 khz wav.

When they finish the song, the CD is played back directly into the speakers. You are appalled by the degradation in the sound - it is a shadow of its former self.

I think we both know that this is just silly. The fact that you choose to pin such an idea on the most lo-fi, nasal, thin, unsubtle style of music out there is bordering on the hilarious.

You may also have to come to terms with the fact that, as someone who has spent a lot of time at loud rock gigs, your hearing has been permanently compromised in terms of hi-end frequency response....

I think this may be a sign of your inexperience with live music? Recording bands? When you record a live band you're not just plugging an instrument into the desk (you can DI something sure - but it's not the sound you get out of an amp) - you'll try and find the most appropriate microphone and the instruments sweet spot (s). But a microphone is an approximation - based upon it's polar / frequency response - it never actually sounds 100% like the instrument in the room.

Take the room as well - the room has a massive impact on the recorded sound.

Guitar amps do sound different in person. As do drums.

As do Orchestras.

I went to see Steve Reich's Desert music at the Barbican in November last year. Sat right in the middle - in front of the stage. Now I know the piece of music really, really well through recordings, but this was the first time I'd seen it live.

In terms of volume - it certainly wasn't as loud as I'm used to listening to music, but it was a pleasant volume.

Seeing it live really opened my eyes - both to the subtle performance differences and the nuances that the conductor was adding to the players - but also the stereo seperation, and richness of the orchestra - the way you could feel the bass drum through the floor - shifting air physically makes a big difference (ah an acoustic effect you say - not raw standard air waves - well no you'lld be wrong - sound is about sensation as well as what is strictly within the audible range - ask Evelyn Glennie). Being there, with the crowd, sat in silence watching this performance is genuinely entrancing - it's about so much more than just melting your face off. There is an - otherness - to it.

TLDR - Live music in some circumstances is far better, and far more moving than recorded music.

[beatmunga]

I totally agree with virtually all you said cmcpress. I stated something similar in an earlier post in this thread.

I'm specifically addressing the fact that machinsworking has stated that, in particular, and out of all of the types of music out there, Hard Rock has sonic qualities live that cannot be captured in the studio.

I would argue that, unless it is a very small gig, the process for capturing the sound from the amps, drums, vocals etc is not only very similar live as in the studio, but probably inferior in sonic quality, as the sensitivity of condenser mics is not generally suited to a live stage (risk of feedback etc). And dynamic mics just don't have the frequency response, as we all know.

For what it's worth, I've just got back from an afternoon outdoor small rock gig in a summer beer garden. The sound was as shite as usual, but I and everyone else there had a fantastic time. The band had real charm and charisma, didn't take themselves too seriously, and the crowd weren't dickheads. We all had a few drinks and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

But the sound was still shite compared to an even half decent studio recording. I can't believe that anyone would seriously debate that this is virtually always the case with Rock Music.

[H20nly]

For what it's worth, I've just got back from an afternoon outdoor small rock gig in a summer beer garden. The sound was as shite as usual, but I and everyone else there had a fantastic time. The band had real charm and charisma, didn't take themselves too seriously, and the crowd weren't dickheads. We all had a few drinks and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

But the sound was still shite compared to an even half decent studio recording. I can't believe that anyone would seriously debate that this is virtually always the case with Rock Music.

ok, but imagine that instead of that band playing... someone popped a "half decent studio recording" CD on instead. would that have made the day even better? what if they popped on a really well recorded CD, would hearing that over the PA system have somehow created a sonic sensationalism that would have made everyone appreciate the venue and the festivities that much more?