Please Bring Back playback head scrubbing!

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:06 pm

Thanks for taking the time out of a surely hectic shedule to reply, Gerhard, it means a lot to us to know that Ableton hears and listens. I knew deep down that there was no way y'all we're going to be able to give us scrubbing back in the release of 5--clearly it is too far along to go back and monkey with this core functionality and not have to start the beta over and miss NAMM, etc....

For the future, I really hope Ableton keeps listening and implementing features that users request here on the forums. I guess the issue that has arisen in both 4 and 5 betas is that by the time the first beta arrives, there isn't much hope for serious design changes, only to fix flaws and find bugs. Makes sense, as does the great beta forum approach to beta testing. The problem is that by beta time, the new features have been decided upon by Ableton, and old features changed/removed by Ableton as well. I know y'all have to keep a few tricks up your sleeve and not give away the future of your software, but I wonder if you had some alpha testers or simply allowed a hundered or so heavy-duty registered Live users that have been around since 2 or 3 and have posted on your forums hundreds of times to possibly comment on design ideas for future editions of Live. Not sure how it would work, maybe the people who have hunted down the most bugs in the 4 and 5 beta tests or something, but....if this system had been in place before the 5 beta, I'm sure at least a few or more people would've been there to say that the loss of 3 style scrubbing was not good for their workflow, or that the clip scrub quantize being linked to global was not helpful to performance, or that the new preset scenario for effects and vsti is also not helpful in live performances. I guess the catch 22 is that Ableton has design such an open-ended software that everyone uses it in different ways--its almost like a musical software Rorschach test(like montrealbreaks so duly noted). The catch lies in that when making changes that might benefit some, you might also be taking away features that benefit others. Anyhow, thanks again for the reply.

Ryan

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:32 pm

hoffman2k wrote:For the audible effect you guys are after.... Doesn't the beat repeat do the job for you?
Once you know how to work the thing. You can get greater results imo.

Not at all really. The beauty of Live 3 style scrubbing (or Live 4 if you hold down the "ctrl" key) is that there is no repetition unless you manuever the mouse in a way to purposely create it (such as holding down the left button and moving the mouse to the left at the same rate as the playpos line moves to the right, creating a stuttering effect). The new click and release scrubbing (or incessant quantized repetitions if you don't release) in 5 is a lot different. Beat repeat is kind of cool, but I'll take supatrigga and 3 style scrubbing any day of the week, hands down. It's all in how you use the scrubbing, and what type of clip you are scrubbing, and what your desired effect is. For DJ's mixing two or more unrelated tracks, I'm sure the new nudge and 5 style scrub is an answer to prayer. To others mixing and matching all sorts or loops and clips at random, I'm sure nudge is helpful too. I like using scrub to take a melodic monophonic clip and give it variation rythmically and harmonically by using 3 style scrubbing. Two examples from live performances with my duo, Mixed Bag, where we do all live looping:

Check the bass intro part on this track, where I'm scrubbing away:
http://quandry.em411.com/download/release/3140

Check the high-register bass action on this track at about 2:00 into the track
http://quandry.em411.com/download/release/3982

Not that these are great examples of anything, but gives you an idea as to the sound I'm talking about, and it really doesn't sound like anything in 5. Works best on clips with a single instrument/sound, as opposed to full tracks with drums/keys/bass etc. If you haven't messed with this feature in 3 or 4 (again with "ctrl" key pressed down), you should at least try it out for kicks. Take it easy,

Ryan

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:50 pm

quandry wrote:Thanks for taking the time out of a surely hectic shedule to reply, Gerhard, it means a lot to us to know that Ableton hears and listens. I knew deep down that there was no way y'all we're going to be able to give us scrubbing back in the release of 5--clearly it is too far along to go back and monkey with this core functionality and not have to start the beta over and miss NAMM, etc....

For the future, I really hope Ableton keeps listening and implementing features that users request here on the forums. I guess the issue that has arisen in both 4 and 5 betas is that by the time the first beta arrives, there isn't much hope for serious design changes, only to fix flaws and find bugs. Makes sense, as does the great beta forum approach to beta testing. The problem is that by beta time, the new features have been decided upon by Ableton, and old features changed/removed by Ableton as well. I know y'all have to keep a few tricks up your sleeve and not give away the future of your software, but I wonder if you had some alpha testers or simply allowed a hundered or so heavy-duty registered Live users that have been around since 2 or 3 and have posted on your forums hundreds of times to possibly comment on design ideas for future editions of Live. Not sure how it would work, maybe the people who have hunted down the most bugs in the 4 and 5 beta tests or something, but....if this system had been in place before the 5 beta, I'm sure at least a few or more people would've been there to say that the loss of 3 style scrubbing was not good for their workflow, or that the clip scrub quantize being linked to global was not helpful to performance, or that the new preset scenario for effects and vsti is also not helpful in live performances. I guess the catch 22 is that Ableton has design such an open-ended software that everyone uses it in different ways--its almost like a musical software Rorschach test(like montrealbreaks so duly noted). The catch lies in that when making changes that might benefit some, you might also be taking away features that benefit others. Anyhow, thanks again for the reply.

Ryan

Good post Ryan!

Yes, you could perhaps make some polls for already existing features you want to change or improve in the next release, and ask more for ideas here in the forum in general.

This forum is really great and your support too, but it lacks a bit off comunication between you and us all around here beside bugs and problems.

I´m sure you could find a little more time between 2 releases to ask and discuss here with us all.

Perhaps we can have a little 5.5 upgrade in a few months with a lot of smaller back or crossprovements and everybody is happy again?

Greetings

supster · Post by **supster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:08 am

Gerhard wrote:Hi folks,

we hear you! Please understand that we now have to focus on finding and fixing bugs, i.e. making sure the software works as specified. Changing the spec at this point would jeopardize the stability of the software that will ultimately be released. Improving the software by changing exisiting functionality is one of our most delicate tasks, as every change can break someone's working methods. The mistakes we make on the way hit our loyal users of all people. Thanks for bearing with us, we will try our best to accomodate your wishes with future releases.

Gerhard

ouch .. thanks for getting back to us directly, that rarely happens in the wishlist forum ..

but kind of figured all that.

i think you guys would be making everyone - yourselves and the users - a lot happier if you loosened up a little on the "no options" design philosophy a bit?

ie: i dont see any reason why what we're talking about couldnt have been left an option with a hotkey.

this applies to other instances where existing features were changes as opposed to expanded opon (the new preset chooser, the piano roll)

i also agree with quandry that you should have an early team of pre-alpha user advisors to give you direct feedback on what is working and what isnt before the next version

we have definite ideas about what our software needs needs because we work with it every single day, and we are not afraid to tell you what we think because we're not a part of office politics

..

let me know, i'll fly out there before the next upgrade. i have family in hamburg anyway ...
.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:59 am

supster wrote:i think you guys would be making everyone - yourselves and the users - a lot happier if you loosened up a little on the "no options" design philosophy a bit?

ie: i dont see any reason why what we're talking about couldnt have been left an option with a hotkey. .

I think it's more about good clean design rather than "no options." If every bit of functionality changed is left as an option with a hot key we'll end up with an unusable monster like logic.... 20 windows, 1000 pulldown menu options, etc. etc.

lm

supster · Post by **supster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:51 am

leisuremuffin wrote: If every bit of functionality changed is left as an option with a hot key we'll end up with an unusable monster like logic.... 20 windows, 1000 pulldown menu options, etc. etc.

thats kind of an extreme position, dont you think?

1 - why change functionality that is *basic* to the way an application works ... in favor of a new way of doing things, unless it encorporates the old way and improves on it?

the point is they pulled this feature in favor of the new way, and in the opinion of a lot of us it was a big mistake

2 - how do hotkeys make an applicaition unusable? not following you

3 - giving users options that dont overly clutter the interface ... is not at ALL the same as Live suddenly having 20 windows and thousands of pulldown options and turning into Logic

its about sound design decisions and good sense. users can handle options as long as theyre necessary and vital to make application adaptable.

4 - Logic is far from an unusable monster. its just different.
.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:29 am

i'm taking an extreme position? You're the one claiming live is taking a "no options" philosophy.

I for one prefer the new way of handling offset, so maybe i'm a little biased here.

Remember how unhappy people were with the removal of the "bus view" when 4 came out? turns out its not such a big deal...

whatever.

and BTW logic sux. In my opinion, it is everything that Ableton is the opposite of. I used to use Digital Performer for all of my sequencing. I can't tell you how happy i was when i discovered live and got to work with a program that got out of my way. And logic is even worse than DP. Too much stuff that you don't need. I'm not saying that what you're asking for will make ableton that, but i am saying that it is a step in that direction. Lets keep it simple.

-lm

krikor · Post by **krikor** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:45 am

i guess i'll really have to work my ass off on MAXMSP and stick a bit to live4... cause those things are really not convenient for a live stage use...the overall reaction of the new looping, starting point and context of the clip view is really a pain in the ass, while in the rush i keep changing the nudge without wanting to, the menu in my effect and vsti, is really not possible also in live situation, while it's not a problem in studio, on stage it doesn't make anysense... i mean if you are doing some intense live stuff!!!!

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:23 am

leisuremuffin wrote: Remember how unhappy people were with the removal of the "bus view" when 4 came out? turns out its not such a big deal...

Still using 3 for buss view, arranger I/O, and non "ctrl" key modified scrubbing. Buss view helps a lot if you bring all sorts of live signals into live. Arranger I/O removal in 4 was apparently dissed enough that they brought it back in 5. I'm with supster--changing the bread and butter functions of an app that we've been using for many years kind of sucks--why take out useful stuff like buss view and arranger I/O--buss view took up all of one tiny icon of space (which is still availible), arranger I/O took up none if you minimized it. The presets on the effects up to 4 take up very little room, but are extremely useful in a live performance, much easier/quicker than the new 5 browser scenario.

Changing a key feature of the app. like scrubbing without keeping the old functionality is a bit extreme. I understand the simplicity factor and all that, but seriously, we're talking about a handful, single digit number of issues/possible options. Some of these could even be in preferences. Losing user base and missing out on upgrade $ is not worth it to Ableton just to keep four buttons out of their program. People use this app. in so many different ways--they need to be careful when changing things to appeal to a DJ/DAW crowd that they aren't screwing over a whole loyal sector of their dedicated user base that performs with Live. All we are asking for is to keep old core functionality at least as an option. The reason buss view talk is dead is because everyone from 3 and before said their piece many times, and now many of the people here never even used 3, so what's to miss? Maybe someday it'l be back, surely there's many others like me still using 3 for various reasons...

Krikor's post gets at the heart of the matter--this it THE app. for live performance, most of us don't have or want a choice, its Ableton all the way, for good reason. For them to take extremely useful and intuitive things like the effect presets and make them much more circuitous and require more attention to different areas of the screen and more mouse clicking is NOT helpful to performers at all. When they take away/change key functions that are the reason many of us use the app., do they really expect everyone will upgrade???

Ryan

DJRetard · Post by **DJRetard** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:00 pm

In future I think ableton should pick ten very experienced users who get betas long before the first 500 and i mean really basic betas that show what the new features are, or will be. Maybe the abs did this?

This is what Digidesign do, or used to do. This gives them time to change things long before opening up the Beta phase to others..

As one person mentioned earlier on the new features were probably set in concrete before the beta testing started so it was just a bug search mission.

I also think there are to many beta users. I found the whole experience quiet confusing. so many posts that made no sense, so many posts from users with little experience and there wasnt really a community spirit. The beta testers should have been communicating with each other a lot more. I think many tried but with so many posts every day it became impossible to keep track of what was going on for many of us.

Still, I enjoyed the experience.

Im just glad I wasnt testing a new jet

DJRetard · Post by **DJRetard** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:02 pm

Also wanted to say

RYAN----Great Post

DJRetard · Post by **DJRetard** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:13 pm

Lesiuremuffin,

your opinion is extreme and Im going to say that Live has become quite cluttered. The two screen only is great in principle but dont you think its beginning to get a little messy.? I agree Logic was and still is a monster but make no mistake. Live could easily go that way eventually.

Pro tools has many features and its interface is very clean compared to ableton Live and they still have the same features from 10 years ago. the difference is they improved features theu didnt ditch well used features EVER.

Its called experience.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:34 pm

it's interesting to me, because it indicates they didn't know that people were using playhead scrubbing

just think about the implications of that.

krikor · Post by **krikor** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:09 pm

what's more weird is even that menu thing, someone using ableton in live situation can easyly realize that it's a vey unuseful new feature, it's just a lack of time when you are on stage!!!

supster · Post by **supster** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:14 pm

leisuremuffin wrote:i'm taking an extreme position? You're the one claiming live is taking a "no options" philosophy.

no: i'm recognizing that ableton has a "few options as possible" philosophy ...

that is being implemented with an "even if it breaks basic existing excellent fuctionality" result

this is bad.

i'm sittting here playing with the new offset marker implementation ... trying to duplicate what ive been doing with the clip offset marker since vs 2 using the new features ... and i cant.

so, to create predictable rythmic variations on a loop using the clip playhead in the future ... i either have to use the sample offset envelopes (which is a slower, more limited, less intuitive teqnique)

OR .. i have to render all audio im not working with as a single wav, start a new project in a previous version ... pull my single wav in as a backing track .... use the mouse playhead scrubbing on all the loops i want to create variations on .. record them .... then open my project back up in vs 5 and pull the variations back in??

why? because the developers axed a basic function of thier program in favor of a new method to accomodate DJ beatmatch correction?

dont kid yourself - this is what the new nudge/brake features are for. and dont mistake me: i *do* DJ full tracks with live and this new functionality was needed. i like it for that

but they killed off the old way for the sake of a principle. in this case it was a mistake ... in my opinion and in the opinion of others that contributed to this (now) 4 page thread ...

for every 4 page thread, there are potentially hundreds of others that read and dont post, and thousands of others who arent on the forum but are going to notice this when the full version comes out, and be limited and unhappy with this, and/or will NOT buy the new version based on what they find in the demo.

.