BUG: Push 3 Timing issues. ( even with 24PPQ to ERM Multiclock)

[dest4b]

recording (both ) pushs kick and external drummachine kick external, not in Push.

if you record in push all is fine. I have also tested that.
I think thats because most people doesent fall over iit

PS: Normally i send the clock only via 24 pulse to erm and erm distribute that with two MIOXL to all devices that needs clock. Also i grouped the hardware by latency to match any of the 4 outs of the erm. Notes are send via Midi and the Mios merge the clock to it. works perfect. But not with Push

[bodom76]

record externally.. if you record in push all is fine.

Ah thats awesome then. I’m good to go. I got the standalone to record into. I thought it impacted recording in as well since you mentioned using adat.

[dest4b]

jap i think thats the point support is also ignoring.
Answers i get was sonly regarding Monitoring Latency and i should not route audio from Push to Mixer and back to push.
And its clear if i add an external clock in this case it would make trouble. And that they are thinking that i have a misunderstood of using ableton.



Routing.. Monitoring
Extrenal clock ?? whoot

Best advice from support is looking to push like it is an instrument....

As it is an Instrument it is hooked up to my mixer as all my other Instruments.

But dont get me wrong

Push3 Standalone is .. BAM f#%€ing cool!.
That sound .. the FX . The sequencer.. the Parameter locks.. the endless deepness. the flexibillity.
I waited for that now 20 Years!!

I Love it!! So long as i dont include my other Gear.
So ableton please fix that. And please add the missiing Toggles for your devices. ect

[dest4b]

https://youtu.be/LsZK5nsrjc8

mhn.

Unusuable for me.

Thinking about sending it back before the 30days are reached.

And im not amused about support was handeling my case. Spend days with support. Instrucktions Screenshots.

And the answer is that i am misunderstanding using Ableton Live. Come on.
Seems no one has followed my test instrucktions @ Support.


I am not a Betatester. ! I have payed for P3S !

[bodom76]

I don't have the same use case but the other thing I am interested in is if I can send MIDI from Push to my hardware while it is is controller mode and record into Push with no timing issues. I will try this is

Also that video is odd since I am pretty sure you can set up CV tools in the DAW and get the outputs set up there, just not in standalone mode. Not sure if he spent enough time with it. I will be able to start the testing tomorrow.

[dest4b]

with my ERM and some mididelay devices i can get push and external gear in sync. The ecording in my DAW is working in this way..
But if this is done i cant record in push because of the latency..

Hopefully it will be fixed soon. but i guess.. it is not only a clock oroblem as standard midi Notes are also affected.

Maybe adding a latency compensation on audio output and input will solve it. But im not an expert

[MichaelAbletonForum]

My Studio and Live Setup is based on Elektron Units, Live, Push2. and Waves Sound Grid. I’ve read all the forum posts about timing and sync because this is the main key of fun. Bad Timing bad vibes!

SoundGrid Server is Intel based but has a reduced Linux OS with a very highly audio priority. So it can have 0,8 ms Latency. In Processing Out, But in real 2,3 ms is always possible.

It seams that Live Push 3s is also Based on Intel but with a normal OS, no dedicated hardware accelerator. So it means Roundtripp Latency will be always over 20 ms. So it makes sense that Ableton said us it as instrument. That’s ok, but I’ve read that it can’t follow a clock?

For a Center of the studio, network audio is missing eG Dante or SoundGrid/ Click Out. Network Connection/ WiFi. I hope in the future there will be a docking station. With clock, network audio monitor connectors.

[dest4b]

the problem is.. if you use it as an instrument on an external mixing desk , like i use all my instruments, that the clock is 10ms earlier as the audio output of push.

And thats a bummmer. you cant compensate it.
If you use no mixer and connect all to Push with an adat interface on push.. you nearly will have no problem.

Hopefully it will be fixed soon.
BTW also midi Events like notes are not send in sync with audio out. also about 10ms to early.

also crazy is that the video above ( youtube link ) was describing exact the problem i am facing. But it is censored now.

[bodom76]

The yt link still works and is visible. I just clicked it. It is also not that accurate. He didn’t spend enough time with the device. Mine just showed up. I’ll spend planta of time with mine this week and see how it works for me.

[dest4b]

as i wrote that. the link was set to Private.

I found some workarround. But that does not really help.
It moves the Problems arround..

And yes i have spend a lot of time in the last 1.5 weeks.


But i am looking forward for your test !
Do you use an external mixer for your Gear ? Or a A/D converter where all instrumants and Push is connected to ?

[[jur]]

It is also not that accurate. He didn’t spend enough time with the device.

Yep! And that's a real problem.
I'm not saying everything is mentioning is wrong, but he's definitely missed several features and those incorrect informations are mixed with valid points. So if you're someone searching for info on Push because you're planning to buy one, or because you're trying to find a solution to a specific problem, it's nowhere claimed "I'm not sure about what I'm saying so please take this with a bit of salt".
I'm not sure how it helps or not here regarding the timing issues.

[dest4b]

some tests..
There you can see what is happening and why it is in Sync if you record in Push directly
-6ms + 6ms = 0ms
Andy why i have problems using an external mixer then its 12ms between Midi clock and Audio Out of push or 6ms between CV Tools Clock and Audio Out of Push.
I hope you understand


Push Synced via Link in Ableton

Push sends:
Midi clock to Analog Rytm - sequencer Kick 4/4
24PPQN via CV1 with CV Tools to ERM - ERM midi clock to MachineDrum sequencer Kick 4/4
Midi Note to BS2 4/4

Push Audio Out L - Core 707 Kick ( snipped the first ms of silence away in sampler ) 4/4
Push Audio Out R - Analog Synth ( 4/4) ( but forget it as the Attack of Analog is to soft for the test. )

All Connected to my AD converters via Raydat to my DAW. Ableton with link and Push Link enabeled.
But dont care much about LINK because the problem exists also LINK disabled.
Starting Record on Ableton .. press Play on Push.

First Screenshot:

Count in .. ( EMR MUTICLOCK needs 4 Bars to count in.. so Machinedrum is not playing. )
The red Line marks the first sound that is from Midi Synced AnalogRytm ( -5ms from Abletons 1 Bar )
The Green Line marks the First Sound that comes from Audio Out of Push. (+5ms from Abletons 1 Bar , So 10 ms difference from Midiclock )

I recognized that CV Trigger from CV tools is starting "correct" ( 0,5-1ms ??? ) in sync regarding Ableton and Link. Thats a bit funny...

But take a look.


Second Screenshot .. some Bars later. Machinedrum is running now from Erm that is counted in.

[knarrrz]

Your test is showing the different latency problems very well. Generally, what I've found out so far to be considered is:

- digital audio processing and conversion naturally produces latency, a digital hardware mixer might add a little to it
- changing the audio interface settings will change the amount of round trip latency
- all Instruments and Audio Effects on Push are sent out with the same internal latency, except:
- there's no latency compensation for the MIDI clock by now, it is sent out directly (bug)
- CV Tools also has no internal latency compensation, but it's still delayed by the DA conversion on the CV out (bug or intended?)
- MIDI note events are handled differently, latency is only compensated when using an External Instrument device
- some hardware synths may have their own latency, but in most cases it's negligible
- when recording into an Audio Track in Live, Monitoring on that track should be set to "Off", otherwise the delay is printed into the audio file
- Push doesn't offer a Track Delay setting yet, that would be helpful for fine adjustments

I'm no expert either, but I guess, even when Ableton fixes the bug with the MIDI clock, you still might have to make a few manual settings or workarounds depending on your actual setup. Unfortunately, there isn't just one solution that would fit all different kinds of recording situations, each setup needs its own specific settings.

[dest4b]

i think there is something screwed up with latency compensation.

If i use an external instrument for midi the note is also playing 6ms earlyer. Now it is at -2ms with external instrument its at -8
I thinik -2 is the latency of my BS2 .. so we can say Note is send on Point.. If you use a External instrument it is also at -6 .

My Mixer and Raydat has a roundtrip of about 3ms .. i know. i can handle that.

Pleas note that i dont use any Monitoring on my Push because i use a External mixer.

Also you can see Midi clock is 12ms earlier then Pushs audio out.
Also Pushs Audio aout is 5-6ms later then Ableton Link sync. If we take Link sync as Latency 0

I know how to fix that in Ableton. But audio out is always tight from Ableton. Only problems you could get is a bit driver latency compensation because of the A/D D/A. (maybe 1ms) If you take it serious.

But on Push its impossible.

If i fix that the clock problem with latency comoensation of ERM for clock and Mididelay for Note sequencing. But then i am running in other problems. If i record something from pushs pads or an external Midi Keyboard its out of grid.

In Ableton DAW i managed to bi 99.5% tightnes with ERM.

Also Abletons audio out is 100% on Point with external gear without any adjustment. Clock is a different thing. ERM is the solution here.

hey i am talking also about audio out.. nothing special.

Funfact.. or not those latencies kill each other if you record in Push could be purpose that it works for normal Users.
But it seems im not normal

And my Force is working very very well with all this stuff. Its in sync to outboard. Its 100% tight with Link. Also if i record something with audio in on the Force ( Behringer UMC 1820) its on the grid.
And recording Midi events from Keyboard and Forces Pads is 100% in grid.
The only thing it cant do is the integration to Ableton. And Parameterlock.
But i must say the FX and devices on Push sounds much better.

[xrcst]

I ran a few tests on my sequencers using MLA
http://www.users.on.net/~mcdds001/mmmmq ... itter.html

And P3 doesn't look to be very stable as a midi clock generator in comparison:

Device under test.............................Clock Tempo.....Clock RMS Jitter (Average mS).....Clock Peak Jitter (Max mS)
AbletonViaRolandMX-1@100BPM.....100....................0.169........................................1.553
Deluge@100BPM..............................99.998..............0.006........................................0.016
ERMMidiClock+@120BPM................120.091..............0.004.......................................0.013
MC-101@100BPM.............................100....................0.006.......................................0.032
ModelCycles@120BPM.....................119.999.............0.181........................................0.269
P3S@120BPM...................................119.991..............0.892......................................2.472
P3S@100BPM...................................99.992..............0.888......................................3.228
P3Control@100BPM.........................100....................0.071.......................................0.526
P3Control@120BPM.........................120....................0.084......................................0.498

Edit: sorry about the formatting