Ableton Forum

Anyone catch Bill Clinton on Fox?? Chris Wallace throws some 'tough' questions regarding how Clinton dealt with Bin Laden. Watch it while you can, the Youtube links are already down per Fox's request. Even if you don't like Clinton there's some history lessons here.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +fox&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +fox&hl=en

Posted here rather than starting another politcal thread.

D DAS wrote:i bummed to because "The Myth Busters" won't touch this issue. discovery chanel won't let them. if anyone could prove or debunk that day it would be the Myth Busters

MythBusters wrote:To test this theory, Adam will construct a full scale model of the World Trade Center towers. He will also be filling the entire building with all of the necessary desks, papers, computers, mannequins, and pretty much everything to make the model as accurate as possible. While Adam is working on the towers, Jamie is putting together two 747's, also complete with everything inside that was inside the two original airplanes. Two hired interns will fly the planes directly into the towers, exactly as it happened on September 11th 2001!

That would be fucking EPIC.

My favorite part about this supposed government-wide (some would say transnational, multi-government-wide) conspiracy, involving thousands of players from high-level leaders to low-level functionaries is that, so far at least, nobody's leaked! First time for everything, I guess.

pilcrow wrote:My favorite part about this supposed government-wide (some would say transnational, multi-government-wide) conspiracy, involving thousands of players from high-level leaders to low-level functionaries is that, so far at least, nobody's leaked! First time for everything, I guess.

That's what I keep saying.

subterFUSE wrote:

pilcrow wrote:My favorite part about this supposed government-wide (some would say transnational, multi-government-wide) conspiracy, involving thousands of players from high-level leaders to low-level functionaries is that, so far at least, nobody's leaked! First time for everything, I guess.

That's what I keep saying.

People have leaked. FBI agents have come forward talking about how investigations into Al Qaeda cells were blocked in the weeks preceding the attacks. Firemen have stated that they did in fact recover at least three of the black boxes from the world trade centre, which is denied by the US government.

The demolition theories are a red herring. Cut that out of the conspiracy and you’re left with a small group of people (possibly working with the terrorists, possibly not) confusing things just enough to allow the attacks to take place. Not that hard, and easily deniable. Why risk the demolition? Even if the towers were left standing, would they be reparable? I doubt it.

Maybe they thought the twin towers would survive. Afterall the pentagon was hit in the only newly reinforced section, which just happened to be almost completely empty. The pilot even had to fly round the building especially to hit this wall.

BTW, just as funny is the assumption that governments can’t keep a secret. Because some have leaked, you think that’s all of them? Not true I’ll give you an example of a secret the US government has kept…

Oh no. I can’t, because I don’t know what they bloody are, do I?

Well there’s always the hundreds of declassified documents that get released decades after the events. But no one really cares about these because they were such a long time ago. Dare I say Northwoods? And that was one they didn’t even mind you knowing about.

Enough of this callow, mewling, puerile civilizational self-loathing! We've got a lot to be proud of!

www.ilovewesterncivilization.com

Let's start a list, shall we?: Greek philosophy. Roman civilization. Shakespeare. Newton. Mozart. Magellan. Da Vinci, Edison, Curie, Pasteur. Did I miss anyone?

andydes wrote:BTW, just as funny is the assumption that governments can’t keep a secret. Because some have leaked, you think that’s all of them? Not true I’ll give you an example of a secret the US government has kept…

Oh no. I can’t, because I don’t know what they bloody are, do I?

Well, I can't refute logic like that.

There is no conspiracy. Popular mechanics scientifically debunked 9/11 myths. As opposed to making up evidence as you go along like the stupid loose change kids. loose change and popular mechanics had a debate on tv, and judging by how unprofessional those stupid brats acted on tv kills all there credibility. They show the signs of classic conspiracy theorists. They refuse to believe anything except for there own info, last I heard, thats just pure ego and ignorance.


Heres a link to popular mechanics on 9/11.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 27842.html

DeadlyKungFu wrote:Anyone catch Bill Clinton on Fox?? Chris Wallace throws some 'tough' questions regarding how Clinton dealt with Bin Laden. Watch it while you can, the Youtube links are already down per Fox's request. Even if you don't like Clinton there's some history lessons here.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +fox&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +fox&hl=en

Posted here rather than starting another politcal thread.

i saw it the other night.

i can't stand the way they formulate questions.

i know bill wanted to kick his ass!

frankie123 wrote:There is no conspiracy. Popular mechanics scientifically debunked 9/11 myths.

Right, by examining top secret photos that uh, prove that building 7 had enough damage to fall without actually being hit. So, why in fact would the photo that proves their point be top secret? Why would civilians, and decisively civilians that are looking for explanations that debunk the 'conspiracy theorists' be allowed to veiw said classified photos? The Loose Change guys are kids in their early twenties, not scientists, and I agree, a lot of what they compliled doesn't add up, but the mere fact that the popular mechanics people, (hopefully scientists), had to use 'classified' information to 'debunk' kids? It's ridiculous IMO.

Not saying that I know what happened, just saying that Popular Mechanics lost all credibility IMO, when they tried to sell that line!

frankie123 wrote:There is no conspiracy. Popular mechanics scientifically debunked 9/11 myths. As opposed to making up evidence as you go along like the stupid loose change kids. loose change and popular mechanics had a debate on tv, and judging by how unprofessional those stupid brats acted on tv kills all there credibility. They show the signs of classic conspiracy theorists. They refuse to believe anything except for there own info, last I heard, thats just pure ego and ignorance.


Heres a link to popular mechanics on 9/11.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 27842.html

The debunking sites all gleefully go for the more extreme theories, as they are easy targets. Try considering some other options. Here a brief synopsis of 7 theories, in increasing level of complexity:


Al Qaeda did it, the government acted as best they could on the information they had. Information was withheld for national security reasons.

Al Qaeda did it. Some key players had intelligence that something was going to happen, but were incompetent in dealing with it. Small cover up at administration level required to protect their asses.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew something was going to happen, but deliberately hindered investigations into terrorist activity to create the pearl harbour type effect. A small team probably kept tabs on the operation, but they were taken by surprise at the scale of it. Slightly larger cover up required, but conspiracy only directly involves a small group of people.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew exactly what was going to happen, and deliberately hindered investigations and ensured that the response to the hijackings was not effective. This could involve a tip off to Al Qaeda about the planned Norad manoeuvres. Conspiracy still confined to a small group of people. Evidence could have been planted to ensure that Al Qaeda were definitely implicated.

Covert US operatives used contacts in Al Qaeda to plan the attack. The majority of terrorists were unaware who they were ultimately working for. This cover up may also require removing names from passenger manifests, falsifying movements of terrorist etc. to protect agents. Again only a small group of people need to know the details, as field agents would be given some excuse about national security.

Members of the US government did it all, with Al Qaeda not involved. Remote controlled planes were flown into the buildings, which were brought down by explosives and a missile was fired at the pentagon. The real planes landed in US airforce bases, where the passengers were disposed of. AL Qaeda were framed and is completely innocent. Massive conspiracy involved here, be very scared of your government.

The Jews did it all to further their evil Zionist ways. I’m not even going to comment on this one.


In my opinion, all but the last two are possible scenarios. Note that many of these theories don’t even require the knowledge of high ranking members of the bush administration. Look at the evidence and see what best fits the facts. And don’t forget the key word in murky politics – deniability.

Machinesworking wrote:

frankie123 wrote:There is no conspiracy. Popular mechanics scientifically debunked 9/11 myths.

Right, by examining top secret photos that uh, prove that building 7 had enough damage to fall without actually being hit. So, why in fact would the photo that proves their point be top secret? Why would civilians, and decisively civilians that are looking for explanations that debunk the 'conspiracy theorists' be allowed to veiw said classified photos? The Loose Change guys are kids in their early twenties, not scientists, and I agree, a lot of what they compliled doesn't add up, but the mere fact that the popular mechanics people, (hopefully scientists), had to use 'classified' information to 'debunk' kids? It's ridiculous IMO.

Not saying that I know what happened, just saying that Popular Mechanics lost all credibility IMO, when they tried to sell that line!

Yeah well, don't you think it's even stupider to think that the government would release information to popular mechanics and tell them to keep "mum" about it.

andydes wrote: The debunking sites all gleefully go for the more extreme theories, as they are easy targets. Try considering some other options. Here a brief synopsis of 7 theories, in increasing level of complexity:


Al Qaeda did it, the government acted as best they could on the information they had. Information was withheld for national security reasons.

Al Qaeda did it. Some key players had intelligence that something was going to happen, but were incompetent in dealing with it. Small cover up at administration level required to protect their asses.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew something was going to happen, but deliberately hindered investigations into terrorist activity to create the pearl harbour type effect. A small team probably kept tabs on the operation, but they were taken by surprise at the scale of it. Slightly larger cover up required, but conspiracy only directly involves a small group of people.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew exactly what was going to happen, and deliberately hindered investigations and ensured that the response to the hijackings was not effective. This could involve a tip off to Al Qaeda about the planned Norad manoeuvres. Conspiracy still confined to a small group of people. Evidence could have been planted to ensure that Al Qaeda were definitely implicated.

Covert US operatives used contacts in Al Qaeda to plan the attack. The majority of terrorists were unaware who they were ultimately working for. This cover up may also require removing names from passenger manifests, falsifying movements of terrorist etc. to protect agents. Again only a small group of people need to know the details, as field agents would be given some excuse about national security.

Members of the US government did it all, with Al Qaeda not involved. Remote controlled planes were flown into the buildings, which were brought down by explosives and a missile was fired at the pentagon. The real planes landed in US airforce bases, where the passengers were disposed of. AL Qaeda were framed and is completely innocent. Massive conspiracy involved here, be very scared of your government.

The Jews did it all to further their evil Zionist ways. I’m not even going to comment on this one.


In my opinion, all but the last two are possible scenarios. Note that many of these theories don’t even require the knowledge of high ranking members of the bush administration. Look at the evidence and see what best fits the facts. And don’t forget the key word in murky politics – deniability.

In any case I think that Bush must understand WHAT really happened.

Scube

andydes wrote:

frankie123 wrote:There is no conspiracy. Popular mechanics scientifically debunked 9/11 myths. As opposed to making up evidence as you go along like the stupid loose change kids. loose change and popular mechanics had a debate on tv, and judging by how unprofessional those stupid brats acted on tv kills all there credibility. They show the signs of classic conspiracy theorists. They refuse to believe anything except for there own info, last I heard, thats just pure ego and ignorance.


Heres a link to popular mechanics on 9/11.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... 27842.html

The debunking sites all gleefully go for the more extreme theories, as they are easy targets. Try considering some other options. Here a brief synopsis of 7 theories, in increasing level of complexity:


Al Qaeda did it, the government acted as best they could on the information they had. Information was withheld for national security reasons.

Al Qaeda did it. Some key players had intelligence that something was going to happen, but were incompetent in dealing with it. Small cover up at administration level required to protect their asses.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew something was going to happen, but deliberately hindered investigations into terrorist activity to create the pearl harbour type effect. A small team probably kept tabs on the operation, but they were taken by surprise at the scale of it. Slightly larger cover up required, but conspiracy only directly involves a small group of people.

Al Qaeda did it. Key players knew exactly what was going to happen, and deliberately hindered investigations and ensured that the response to the hijackings was not effective. This could involve a tip off to Al Qaeda about the planned Norad manoeuvres. Conspiracy still confined to a small group of people. Evidence could have been planted to ensure that Al Qaeda were definitely implicated.

Covert US operatives used contacts in Al Qaeda to plan the attack. The majority of terrorists were unaware who they were ultimately working for. This cover up may also require removing names from passenger manifests, falsifying movements of terrorist etc. to protect agents. Again only a small group of people need to know the details, as field agents would be given some excuse about national security.

Members of the US government did it all, with Al Qaeda not involved. Remote controlled planes were flown into the buildings, which were brought down by explosives and a missile was fired at the pentagon. The real planes landed in US airforce bases, where the passengers were disposed of. AL Qaeda were framed and is completely innocent. Massive conspiracy involved here, be very scared of your government.

The Jews did it all to further their evil Zionist ways. I’m not even going to comment on this one.


In my opinion, all but the last two are possible scenarios. Note that many of these theories don’t even require the knowledge of high ranking members of the bush administration. Look at the evidence and see what best fits the facts. And don’t forget the key word in murky politics – deniability.

All I'm saying is that popular mechanics provides evidenciary support for all claims that they tackle. They even said so themselves, they are open to investigating more and more, and they admitted that they haven't figured out everything yet. On the other hand, the loose change morons make all of those claims providing mostly shaky evidence.

The thing that bothers me about people like that is that they make claims that they stick to without the possibility of them being wrong, and at the same time, they have no HARD EVIDENCE. That is the classic conspiracy theorist.

frankie123 wrote:The thing that bothers me about people like that is that they make claims that they stick to without the possibility of them being wrong, and at the same time, they have no HARD EVIDENCE. That is the classic conspiracy theorist.

Please tell me WHO manages this conspitacy against America. Communists? Al Queida? Cina? No globals? I think that it's ridiculous, a LOT of people does not belong to these current of thought (me included). Waiting for your answer..

Scube