Dissapointed about Live 6.

[mercyplease]

heck! - Live doesn't even include a "live" pitchshifting plug-in for realtime performance use -- what the f**k is that about????

Every clip has a pitch setting. Not sure why you need a plugin - maybe I do not understand what you're after.

MERCY REPLIES
YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVENT EVER WORKED WITH VOCALS OR GUITAR. A -1 or +1 PITCH SHIFT OF WARPED MATERIAL IN LIVE SOUNDS LIKE A DALEKS ARSE AFTER A HEAVY NIGHT OUT. SX TOOLS ANBD ALL THE REST CAN PITCH SHIFT FAR BETTER THAN LIVE CAN. YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND

(by having to route individual Impulse tracks to separate Audio Tracks, just to be able to Mute or Solo them individually, for example)

You can solo and mute any slot in the Impulse itself. I guess you mean in terms of automation?

MERCY REPLIES
YES HE MEANS THAT BUT ALSO LOTS OF OTHER STUFF BECAUSE HE HAS USED A CONSOLE WITH BUSSES. THE POINT ISNT TO HUNT AND CLIK WHEN YOU NEED TO HEAR SOMETHING IN ISOLATION, PLEASE TRY A REAL CONSOLE OR ANY OTHER DAW WITH BUSSES AND YOU WILL GET THE PICTURE

Use yer brains' Ableton> First of all, I would not cry if 5 buttons were added if it helped me EDIT AUDIO faster!!! Second of all: Don't want to add a button?? Then simply let CONTROL-E turn the cursor into a Scissors tool, so that a CLIP can be SPLIT right where you point and click -- so you don't have to hunt/search and highlight (lasso) a block and THEN hit CTRL-E.. what does this do? it saves us all editing time by making a common action quicker and easier to perform.

I'm not necessarily opposed to a scissor tool, but for one thing you don't have to select an area, you can just split at the cursor. So granted, instead of one mouse click it is done with a mouse click followed by a split.

Keep in mind that Ableton needs to remain a live performance tool so concerns about not cluttering the interface are not entirely unfounded.


KEEP IN MIND THAT SCISSORS WONT DESTROY THE SOFTWARE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM AND NEITHER WILL IT CLUTTER UP ANYTHING. THE SCISSORS WOULD USED IN ARRANGEMENT VIEW AS IN TRADITIONAL STYLE LINEAR EDITING WHICH ABLETON HAVE DONE EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO BYPASS. HAVE YOU SEEN ANYONE USING LINEAR MODE FOR LIV EPERFORMANCES! ITS NOT EVEN POSSIBLE TO LOOP A SECTION IN LINEAR MODE WHILE DROPPING IN ON THE FLY RECORDING MIDI DATA. THINK DRUM FILL OR SOMETHING. YOU WOULD NEED TO CREATE A CLIP FIRST THEN PUT IT WHERE YOU WANT IT THEN SET IT TO THE LENGTH YOU WANT TO DROP IN OR LIVE WILL CONSTANTLY RECORD SOME AKWARD LENGTH OF TIME. ITS HARDLY SPONTANEOUS AND REQUIRES CLICKING AND THOUGHT BEFORE YOU START RECORDING. THE MAJORITY OF COMPOSERS USE LINEAR SEQUENCING FOR ARRANGING THEIR SONGS AND AS ITS OBVIOUS YOUR A SESSION VIEW GEEZER PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CONSIDER THAT THE MAJORITY AR EBEING SERIOUSLY LEFT OUT IN THIS AREA WITH LIVE.

and this is off-topic a bit, but still relevant:
Why on earth when you click on the SEND channels to edit/examine their FX, do you ever have to see the audio clip window view???? there will never be anything there. you can't put anything there. WE should all immediately see the FX window appear at the bottom, no fuss, no need to push any more buttons or keys or click on a different window view tab.

That seems like a good idea, to automatically switch to Track view when selecting the returns. Then switch back if necessary when a Track is selected, if the Clip View was active before viewing the return.[/quote]

YES ITS A GOOD IDEA

i had to do this in capitals as i couldnt be bother doing all the quote stuff.

[mercyplease]

Why there is no improvement for consisting plug-ins such as Impulse and Reverb?

Have I mentioned poor performance in my first post?

oooh...kay.

Impulse: Has hot-swapping now.

Reverb: Sounds better (imo?) and the gui is smaller.

Performance: 80% increase on my dual core machine.

- along with a ton of other stuff that you choose to overlook, racks, freeze improvements, follow action update, revised midi implementation, better metering, new effects and so on.
Did you not try the demo before paying for this "expensive "major update"" ?!? You might blame Ableton for a - in your mind - less-than-optimal upgrade, but you sure can't claim they MADE you pay, can you?

Andreas.

oooo kayyyyy

Impulse: Has hot-swapping now.

this is cosmetic of the highest order and you know it. you know what he meant and you knew that to'. impulse can certainly do with some enhancements to improve its sound. have you noticed that when ever you put a crash cymbal in a cell you have to trun the release way up to hear the end of it. gate or trigger it makes no difference. wheres the proper one shot mode and how about exclusive on each channel. why just two of them. adsr i snot some crappy wish either. if it had that impulse would be much more useful than just a basic drum machine.

Reverb: Sounds better (imo?) and the gui is smaller.

there must have been something wrong with your ears before then because its no better. It does have a very low output that shrivels and vanishes when you add two more sounds in your track.

so you prefer looking at the world through small eyes then. How does a smaller gui make for a better human interface. when i want to write my music with something the size of an I pod I will first need to get Tommys magic shrinking camera to make me 3 inches tall.

Performance: 80% increase on my dual core machine.

are you trying to get a job of ableton. Are you suggesting that the other 95% of users who voice concerns over lives heavy and sluggush performance are all wrong. Maybe you are getting an 80% increase but why not tell the truth why. Your last computer was a pentium one 400mhz or a 486 pre pentium.


Mercy is a good boy now but ometimes he must get serious.

[mercyplease]

Then simply let CONTROL-E turn the cursor into a Scissors tool, so that a CLIP can be SPLIT right where you point and click

no, because then you cannot split a selected part of a clip..

I really don't understand this Scissors request..

So they'll put a button in Live that you have to click first so that your cursor acts as a scissor?
Isn't that the same effort as pointing the cursor somewhere in a clip and press ctrl+E ?

Actually this saves a click because you don't have to de-activate the scissors button again..

Just learn to accept that Live does things in a different way than other apps..

What is it with you europeans and your fear of scissors. Have you ever used another daw in your life. CtrE requires stealth movements and a lot of zooming and clicking to cut audio up. Think about a one bar loop you have to cut in to 16 parts. in cubase logic and so on yo uset the q to 1/16 and click sixteen times. How is that not faster than ctre e zoom shift and shuffle and hope you get it right.
YOUR resistance makes no sense.

WHY is different better. We all know Ableton have tried to reinvent the wheel but its not working and there will be many more complaints over the years to come so YOU had better just get used to it. Its not as if any of these requests are outlandish or weird or even attempts to copy other daws. Heres another one for you MUTE TOOL yes thats right geezer a mute tool so I dont have to stick all the bits I might use at the end of the arrangement or the beginning or constantly delete and fyi i dont use much warped audio so its not a simple case of dragging a parts length. and dont kid your self on that live is original in anyway. i was using sequencers years ago on the atari that had the session view angle but as I recall i had scissors and mute tools.
get over your self and deal with the fact that most people prefer arranging their song in linear mode.
when i try and do real time performance the programme craps out when im recording in to arrangement view. have you noticed this or are you doing songs with three and a half tracks and bidule. try recording twenty tracks combined midi and audio with a massive contoler set up with loads of real time automation by the time you get to one minute the programme starts crapping out.
a scissors tool in linear mode wont break down your karma geezer.

Im still a good boy. no swear words

[mercyplease]

"....ABLETON is now advertising LIVE as a COMPLETE musical workstation - creation, performance, production"

ok.. I know what you're trying to say..
but I have to see the first quote Ableton saying 'complete daw'..
you won't find that one because they never advertized it as such..

pack it in geezer your gasping for air and tryin to become a politician. they do advertise it as a complete solution and it is but theres an extortinate amount of work arounds.

[mercyplease]

This is from Ableton website:

"About Live

Live is the only solution designed for each stage of the musical process, from creation to production to performance. In the creative stage, Live is transparent, intuitive and responsive, capturing inspiration and encouraging the flow of musical ideas. During production, Live provides all of the professional tools and studio compatibility required to complete and perfect projects. On stage, Live delivers the expressive control and stability that innumerable performing artists have come to rely on. Live 6—Music Creation, Production, and Performance for Mac OS and Windows. Create. Produce. Perform."

Create. Produce. Perform.

Where does it say "click on stuff all day"?

+ the tools are there.
Some people are just too lazy to use them.

Where does it say you cant really do this or that and we dont have that feature

but it does say this

Live 5.0 is one of the most complete digital audio workstations on the market today.

The tools are not there. proper safe solo sub groups and limited ability at playing back multiple audio tracks. groove midi quantise, tools for arranging and a host of other stuff. the job can get done but why do i have to use another daw depending on the project. i work a lot with real instruments that have to be recorded and I rarely use live for this.
a complete solution to me would be not having to shift projects, constantly render to sixteen bit think about work arounds.
im not lazy geezer i work my cheesy cheeks in to the ground when it comes to music I only wish for a few enhancements that are genuinely productive for my traditionalist method of working teh differenc ebetween you and me is that I have embraced new methods but i also see the value in many tried ans tested methods that are to good to be thrown away on a whim and very often with live replaced with an inferior convulted method CTRLE for example in linear mode.

you got your beloved file system and racks but for me and many others we dont care so much for that stuff but i do use it its just not as important to me. if you had your way lives next upgrade would be a big fancy scientific calculator that produces random bleeps and an even smaller gui.
music production isnt just about what your thing or my thing. its time you considered all the different users out there that are not in love with your method of working but they do enjoy the software albeit with a few frustrations. i mean no offence to you but you always without exception sit on the fence and play the pc game or push your own agenda.

in saying that i am a good boy now

[mercyplease]

i think those of you who want live to stay some sort of pristine performance focused tool (exagerating somewhat) are in the minority

Yeah. Minimal is "IN" these days

If Live turns into cubase, it'll lose half of its userbase to the next product who picks up where they left off.
And the other half to steinberg/apple/motu cause they make the same damn thing.
Thats not even a guess. It's a solid prediction.

Fortunately, most of Ableton's developers are of a modular mindset. Even the CEO's.

Racks are a step in the good direction. If you think that is a sign of Live becoming more linear... Guess again

do you remember live two I do it was simplicity as you could get. Live was very simple up to 4. 5 was more invloved and then six arrived changing the game
live is no longer a simple little sequencer. consider a new user never using live before or a user from another daw.
follow actions
warping
racks
session view
clip view
the file system

live is nothing like the easiest daw to get to grips with now. its easy to slap a few drum loops and plugins in and that gives new users the illusion they have mastered the software but when they want to get a little more involved it has a steep learning curve if you cant see that your blinded as user for a few years
still a great and good boy

[mercyplease]

If Live turns into cubase, it'll lose half of its userbase to the next product who picks up where they left off.
And the other half to steinberg/apple/motu cause they make the same damn thing.

Yeah thats right be so different that you leave out the really simple things that make those programs great. Listen we cant put that in are program because Cubase has it even though it would make Ableton better a program we cant do that na no way because were different.

Put the simple things in your program(like more tools in arrangement view to name one)and then people will stop using other programs.

I want options! onorofforofforon.

and it just shows how closed minded some users can be. i agree with you.
h2k doesnt get the point because to him its all about being different for the sake of it regardless if another way is more productive. it also shows how little faith they have in the softwares ability to sell. they think it has to be all different to attract users but I believe deep down he thinks hes still in a little secret club and he doesnt really want to see a mass exodus.

hes saying that if live had some traditional features users would vanish, thats his logic. they wouldnt because live would still have the unique features that sold it originally as well some traditional ones that would be a huge selling point. users from other software would be flocking to live in their droves but the reason that stops many of them are the missing and glaringly obvious very useful tools.

[mercyplease]

best could be maybe, to split the line into a performance and into a studio product.

NO!

Dont you get it? I, like a large amount of Ableton users, use Live for production, performance, and DJ'ing. Ableton Live IS an all-encompassing music solution.

If you only want to produce, and you want lots of buttons and advanced options, get Cubase or SONAR. Either way, theres still practically nothing they can do that Live cant.

The upgrade price for Live 6 is worth it for racks alone. If you dont appreciate racks, you either dont need advanced options, or you havent delved into their creative possibilities yet.

We all want different things from Live, and its a juggling act for Ableton to keep us all happy without sacrificing the whole point of the application.

The wishlist is for putting forward your ideas, seeing how popular they are, and perhaps getting them noticed and addressed by Ableton.

Apart from some features which have been requested numerous times, I think Ableton are doing a great job, and Live 6 is not a dissappointment for me.

dont you get it that the PR is a bit of a half truth. i dont know if ableton would ever consider this and i doubt they have the manpower either but i would have no problem with it.

you need a few little truths so here goes.
Live has much more things to click and drag than cubase logic sonar or pro tools. this is a fact mate. the screen is busier than all of them as well. this is another fact.

I dont really need racks because I make one sound count. If I need to layer a sound I will want it on a channel of its own so I can eq and effect it as I need. I dont need to insert 128 simplers and spend 10 hours fiddling with it to get a sound I want. this is not about delving its about the need. I have racked up stuff but its not been the gold find that some people here claim. I realise fully it has many possibilities but I bet you theres nothing you can do with a rack that I couldnt with a couple of dedicated channels with vsts or a multi sampler. its great for sound designers and tweakers but the upgrade price for that alone wouldnt have been worth it to me.
the wishlist is a farce. there have been hundreds of requests for very obvious and needed features that have been ignored in favour of selling points like mp3 movie support (about 0.5% use that) and a few other things to put on the box. Its not a balancing act for ableton its about selling units. safe solo sub groups is not a selling point because every daw has it and no newbie would understand what thats for anywy. they will understand chain 100 effects together and play and render movies and play your mp3s and be a djs and vj.
live may not be a dissapointmennt to you but it was for many. teh racks and file management system may please you but be assured for many it wasnt a big deal at all. I upgraded for delay compensation and flexi freeze. hardly the most esoteric features. were all different and have different needs but im not saying to you guys you cant have this or you shouldnt get that
this would make me very happy

1 safe solo groups
2 better optimisation so that i can run twenty tracks of audio
thats not much to ask for.

[hoffman2k]

If Live turns into cubase, it'll lose half of its userbase to the next product who picks up where they left off.
And the other half to steinberg/apple/motu cause they make the same damn thing.

Yeah thats right be so different that you leave out the really simple things that make those programs great. Listen we cant put that in are program because Cubase has it even though it would make Ableton better a program we cant do that na no way because were different.

Put the simple things in your program(like more tools in arrangement view to name one)and then people will stop using other programs.

I want options! onorofforofforon.

and it just shows how closed minded some users can be. i agree with you.
h2k doesnt get the point because to him its all about being different for the sake of it regardless if another way is more productive. it also shows how little faith they have in the softwares ability to sell. they think it has to be all different to attract users but I believe deep down he thinks hes still in a little secret club and he doesnt really want to see a mass exodus.

hes saying that if live had some traditional features users would vanish, thats his logic. they wouldnt because live would still have the unique features that sold it originally as well some traditional ones that would be a huge selling point. users from other software would be flocking to live in their droves but the reason that stops many of them are the missing and glaringly obvious very useful tools.

Who made you the expert in what i think?

My point was, I live becomes cubase/logic/dp... Then whats the point in going on with Live?

You know what the real problem is? Ever since Live 5, Abletons marketing department has taken a different direction from the development department.
Point and case: the hundreds of undocumented features...

You see something that has one or 2 things missing.
I see something that will never be done..

Too much pressure from users like you, asking for features like split which is already there... And we'll never see a bugfree version of Live...
From the post below i gather you don't even use racks...
Are you sure you don't want to switch to something more "traditional"?

[Poster]

Heres another one for you MUTE TOOL yes thats right geezer a mute tool so I dont have to stick all the bits I might use at the end of the arrangement or the beginning or constantly

how about right mouse click > "deactivate clip"?

ya see geezer? alot of the basic tools are there..
same as a scissor; it's there; learn to use it..

[Poster]

What is it with you europeans and your fear of scissors. Have you ever used another daw in your life. CtrE requires stealth movements and a lot of zooming and clicking to cut audio up. Think about a one bar loop you have to cut in to 16 parts. in cubase logic and so on yo uset the q to 1/16 and click sixteen times. How is that not faster than ctre e zoom shift and shuffle and hope you get it right.
YOUR resistance makes no sense.

because your thinking/solution is too traditional..
copying it the logic/cubase way still uses 16 clicks..

how about using another key comb. and have it split in 16 parts automaticaly.?

you see, the 'traditional' scissor is too close to how Live currently behaves..
so implementing this is just a small step forward and needs another interface button..
that's a very expensive button i.m.o.

[kineticUk]

Oh no another button
Like thats gonna matter one bit.
If you don't want/need it then you won't use it...end of story.
Arrangement CTRL edits or whatever aren't innovative or future, thats just the inferior way of editing. Gimme some tools.

[am is are]

hello all

i never imagined a reference about the lack of a "scissors" tool (one of the top 5 gripes from seasoned LIVE users, according to Computer Music magazine) would generate so much response, but i'm glad it has.

personally, let control E work 2 ways -- as now:: highlight selection, ctrl-e cuts it and now you're in scissors mode -yay- everywhere you click splits the clip, or click and hold and highlight selection and split the clip in 2 or 3 bits (yay! no extra buttons, but extra functionality -- does that make anybody happy????)

o mercy, please, your "defenses" warmed me heart

now i can't remember who mentioned divergence between development and marketing departments, and certainly this happens. Now i give you all the quote from the LIVE 6 DEMO cd which i picked up at a local retail store:::

"What is Ableton Live?
Live is a complete music solution. Live is a creative musical sketchpad, a full-blown professional DAW production platform, and an expressive performance instrument on stage."
----->>> i believe the subject of contention is that phrase: "full-blown professional DAW production platform" .of course it makes no specific claim, but it sounds good, and that's good marketing. my beef is that you shouldn't say it's a full-blown professional DAW production platform when it's lacking some VERY basic editing functionality, eh???

a few improvements in the Arrangement view would allow LIVE to capture more audience? hard to say... i'm not sure i believe this.. LIVE will never compete with ProTools or Logic or SONAR as a full-on professional production solution. those marketing statements are more about convincing potential customers that LIVE is not just for DJ's, or mashing up some mp3's.

I'd like LIVE to continue to improve, i'd like Ableton to take some risks. i'd love for them to push the performance paradigm at the expense of "more professional DAW functionality". give us some real video integration-- INNOVATE again, as the initial program was an innovation. I'd much rather pay for a VIDEO Generator/Sampler/Instrument add-on than another audio instrument. that would be COOL, that would be blowing people's minds, not working towards providing a crossgrade path to potential converts.

alright, i'm out.

RACKS rule.. (suggestion::: make use of SEND/RETURN Tracks Vertical Space by giving us Return Channel-specific macro knobs that can be mapped to parameters of FX in the return channel and/or macro knobs of any racks in the return channel)

and fer cryin' out loud -- PLEASE give us SCENE FOLLOW ACTIONS!!!

thank you very much abletons
hugs and kisses,
john

[longjohns]

heck! - Live doesn't even include a "live" pitchshifting plug-in for realtime performance use -- what the f**k is that about????

Every clip has a pitch setting. Not sure why you need a plugin - maybe I do not understand what you're after.

MERCY REPLIES
YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVENT EVER WORKED WITH VOCALS OR GUITAR. A -1 or +1 PITCH SHIFT OF WARPED MATERIAL IN LIVE SOUNDS LIKE A DALEKS ARSE AFTER A HEAVY NIGHT OUT. SX TOOLS ANBD ALL THE REST CAN PITCH SHIFT FAR BETTER THAN LIVE CAN. YOU DIDNT UNDERSTAND

(by having to route individual Impulse tracks to separate Audio Tracks, just to be able to Mute or Solo them individually, for example)

You can solo and mute any slot in the Impulse itself. I guess you mean in terms of automation?

MERCY REPLIES
YES HE MEANS THAT BUT ALSO LOTS OF OTHER STUFF BECAUSE HE HAS USED A CONSOLE WITH BUSSES. THE POINT ISNT TO HUNT AND CLIK WHEN YOU NEED TO HEAR SOMETHING IN ISOLATION, PLEASE TRY A REAL CONSOLE OR ANY OTHER DAW WITH BUSSES AND YOU WILL GET THE PICTURE

1. You make it look like I was the one swearing

2. Every clip has not only transpose in semitones, which you seem to be referring to, but also +- 50 cents detune. In other words, complete control of pitch in 1 cent increments.

The complaint was not a lack of a great-sounding pitch shifter, which I'd take to be some offline thing, but for a "'live' pitchshifting plug-in for realtime performance use" - which as I'm pointing out repeatedly, is already quite possible on every clip, without a plugin.

I think it could be nice to have a clip envelope for the detune, because you can only have an envelope with breakpoints on the even transpose semitone values.

I don't mind feature requests, but it's just that when people request things that you can already do, I usually like to point that out, because even if they already know something, someone else reading the thread may not.

I still do not understand the claim that you need a pitch shifting plugin.

p.s. I've used a mixing board. I still do not find it difficult to solo an impulse cell. Guess I'm just a really handy fellow. Anyway I certainly don't mind having more control over soloing or muting cells, but that's not the same thing as saying you can't solo or mute a cell without routing it to another track. That is just not true, so I said as much.

[longjohns]

(suggestion::: make use of SEND/RETURN Tracks Vertical Space by giving us Return Channel-specific macro knobs that can be mapped to parameters of FX in the return channel and/or macro knobs of any racks in the return channel)

Nice one