Global warming? Not here theres not.

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albotnz
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Post by albotnz » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:25 am

Wishbone wrote:global warming is totally nonsensical. This is because global warming depends on a global temperature. however, you cannot have a single temperature for a non homogeneous system, its against thermodynamics. Therefore global warming does not exist.
Wishbone, I think your logic is a little nonsensical. Thermodynamics is a statistical science, where tools like averages are used to describe large systems. You're right, the earth is not the same temperature all over. This does not mean that the average temperature cannot change.

On top of that, records like cores drilled from glacial ice (taken from different points around the world, which can be compiled and made to represent average temperatures) show that the earth's average temperature is currently increasing faster than at any other recorded time.

Sorry to get testy, but I've got a pet peeve against bad science being used to 'proove' points to people. Admittedly, climate change is a complex argument and both sides have been somewhat guilty of doing so.

forge
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Post by forge » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:30 am

the_planet wrote:I believe in global warming!

I grew up in Alaska. I remember snow falling in October, now it falls in late November. I remember being able to make tunnels in my front yard because it was 4-5 feet high some winters. Now it's shitty wet snow. I also remember being able to snowboard a LOT more and in much, much better conditions. There's nothing quite like a heavy snowfall one night, and a crisp, cold, sunny, bluebird sky with fluffy powder everywhere the next day.

Shit, I also don't remember there being forest fires blanketing Anchorage with smoke at all. Every season for the last 5-7 years there has been a forest fire. It's super hot right now, about 80 degrees, and quite humid. This made thunder and lightning, which I also don't remember very much of growing up. Finally, where the fuck are all the bees?! I've seen maybe TWO bumblebees this summer, and a total of zero yellowjacket nests. This is very unusual, as I work in the garden during the day, and actively patrol the eaves of the house for any nesting activity.

Whether it's global warming, climate change, or just my own perception, I don't know. But some things definitely appear to be changing.
thing is what you remember in your whole lifetime is not really significant as there have been changes just as significant throughout history - such as the medieval warm period: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_warm_period
and the little ice age: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
(although ironically in that MWP link there is a graph showing temperatures in 2004 higher than the MWP! - but even still it's not up to the level that will be most worrying)

the thing that scares me about global warming is we will not REALLY start seeing the results until it is too late for anyone to do anything about it

I remember reading somewhere or seeing on telly that the Georgw W. presidency will go down in history eventually not so much for all the fuck ups elsewhere, but because of the terrible waste of 8 years not doing something about global warming - the time he should have been doing something he was deliberately going the opposite way and making it worse at possibly the most crucial time where there could have been a turning point

and it's a real shame when you think the guy who should have been president is the one doing the global warming videos

but I saw something recently that was talking about the normal climates of earth and it was saying that effectively we are still in a kind of mini Ice age because throughout the earth's history at many points there was no ice at all on the caps as the earth was always hotter - hence the reason big fuck off Lizards made it their home

nah the temperatures we are seeing now are no where near what the scientists are worried about - a slightly hotter than normal heatwave is just a discussion point - the kinds of changes they are worried about are more along the lines of stagnant oceans covered in toxic algae (the kind that eventually sank to the bottom to become oil) that was last seen before life even started getting on to land - the kind of conditions humans really wont cope too well with

although saying that ocean levels are already rising significantly enough that island people north of bougainville have had to leave the atoll they have inhabited for generations because it has been swallowed by the ocean

the only thing we know for sure is the world our great grand children live in will be mostly unrecognisable to us

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Post by longjohns » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:49 am

maybe the temperature will also drop faster than ever recorded when we're all dead under a layer of thick black smog

Thinktanx
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Post by Thinktanx » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:51 am

forge wrote:
and it's a real shame when you think the guy who should have been president is the one doing the global warming videos
I know you have seen this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

Not tryin' to let Bush off the hook. He is a dick of the third-order. But Gore is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou imbecil. Of course, now that this info has leaked he is spending millions to "green" his home. Would he have done so if the info hadn't leaked? The issue is important enough to go making films and pointing fingers at everyone, but not also important enough for him to look at his own footprint and be forced to spend his own money on better energy efficiency in his home or even... gasp (!)... god forbid (!)... down-size!? No way... he and his wife need all 20 rooms and 10,000 square feet of that mansion. Here's their excuse: they both have 'offices' there. What are these offices 4,000 square feet a piece?
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albotnz
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Post by albotnz » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thinktanx wrote:But Gore is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou imbecil.
That maybe true & frustrating, but you can't fault the number of people who's attention he's brought to the issue. Regradless of the guy's personal traits, hopefully he'll show politicians that an increasing majority of people will vote on environmental issues, and that it's not political suicide to push them.

just my .02 from the other side of the world.

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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:31 am

Thinktanx wrote:http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

Not tryin' to let Bush off the hook. He is a dick of the third-order. But Gore is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou imbecil.
That's so petty, you watch too much Fox News.

Let's look at what both have done in their professional lives with global warming.
Gore made a movie, gives speaches, he really stirred shit up. I don't care if you do or don't like him, he's putting him time in.

Bush says we need more research, he's ignore report after report from scientists all over the world. He doesn't make an effort to look into it. He refused to sign the Kyoto agreement to straighten up polluters...

Give me a break. Weak ass argument.

What have YOU done to raise global warming awareness? Get on the internet and shit on Al Gore?


A while ago I saw a Discovery show on how global warming is opening up shipping routes north of Canada that weren't open before. The window during the summer is getting larger and there's tons of money being put into that new global market. Canada is also pushing to gain ownership over that stretch of the planet that nobody really wanted to own before.
Last edited by Tone Deft on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thinktanx
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Post by Thinktanx » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:32 am

albotnz wrote:
Thinktanx wrote:But Gore is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou imbecil.
That maybe true & frustrating, but you can't fault the number of people who's attention he's brought to the issue. Regradless of the guy's personal traits, hopefully he'll show politicians that an increasing majority of people will vote on environmental issues, and that it's not political suicide to push them.

just my .02 from the other side of the world.

I really think you are overestimating the film if you think it has accomplished anything like what you are talking about. People in the United States are well aware of global warming. Being aware of it, and doing anything about it, are two totally different things.

Going to see a movie does nothing to prove that people are going to vote on enviromental issues. It hasn't happened yet, but let's hope one day it will. At this point a lot of politicians are still more indebted to big oil than to voters. Just this week Congress voted down a bill to increase taxes on big oil to subsidize renewable energies. While it's true that, on some level, it was done because they feared a tax hike on big oil would inevitably filter down to prices at the pump, it still goes to show...
Last edited by Thinktanx on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Thinktanx
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Post by Thinktanx » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:37 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Thinktanx wrote:http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

Not tryin' to let Bush off the hook. He is a dick of the third-order. But Gore is a hypocritical, holier-than-thou imbecil.
That's so petty, you watch too much Fox News.

Let's look at what both have done in their professional lives with global warming.
Gore made a movie, gives speaches, he really stirred shit up. I don't care if you do or don't like him, he's putting him time in.

Bush says we need more research, he's ignore report after report from scientists all over the world. He doesn't make an effort to look into it. He refused to sign the Kyoto agreement to straighten up polluters...

Give me a break. Weak ass argument.

What have YOU done to raise global warming awareness? Get on the internet and shit on Al Gore?
Wow. I could give fuck all about Fox News. What do I do about global warming? I lessen my carbon footprint at every turn possible. It's what we all should do. I'm not against people raising awareness, and maybe I was a little harsh on Gore there. I shouldn't have called him names. I'll leave out the imbecil part, he is just hypocritical. You do remember that the lowest ring of hell was reserved for liars and hypocrites. :wink:
Last edited by Thinktanx on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:43 am

Thinktanx wrote:You do remember that the lowest ring of hell was reserved for liars and hypocrites. :wink:
Apparently heaven's reserved for George Bush, I'll be in hell, by the bar, long island ice teas, lots of ice, keep 'em coming, pass the ash tray please.
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Thinktanx
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Post by Thinktanx » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:44 am

Tone Deft wrote:
Thinktanx wrote:You do remember that the lowest ring of hell was reserved for liars and hypocrites. :wink:
Apparently heaven's reserved for George Bush, I'll be in hell, by the bar, long island ice teas, lots of ice, keep 'em coming, pass the ash tray please.
:lol: :lol:

I'll be right there with ya, bro. Actually, Bush will be there, too. Definitely.

Or should I say... unfortunately? :D
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albotnz
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Post by albotnz » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:48 am

Thinktanx wrote: I really think you are overestimating the film if you think it has accomplished anything like what you are talking about.
Too true. Reading my post, it came off a little more positive than I intended - I don't think it's by any means accomplished, and you're right about awareness and doing something about it being different things. I suppose my point was just that it frustrates me when people go to derail Gore's arguments by pointing out facts about his personal life which, however true (it is a big fuck off mansion), are irrelevant to the argument.

From what I can tell it's symptomatic of the whole issue. Bush avoiding the issue and delaying action by requesting more research into the particulars of climate change even though the data shows it is happening, and that action (like funding/tax cuts for alternate energy sources) is required independent of the fine details of the situation.

albotnz
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Post by albotnz » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:50 am

Thinktanx wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
Thinktanx wrote:You do remember that the lowest ring of hell was reserved for liars and hypocrites. :wink:
Apparently heaven's reserved for George Bush, I'll be in hell, by the bar, long island ice teas, lots of ice, keep 'em coming, pass the ash tray please.

count me in guys.

Thinktanx
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Post by Thinktanx » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:54 am

albotnz wrote:
Thinktanx wrote: I really think you are overestimating the film if you think it has accomplished anything like what you are talking about.
Too true. Reading my post, it came off a little more positive than I intended - I don't think it's by any means accomplished, and you're right about awareness and doing something about it being different things. I suppose my point was just that it frustrates me when people go to derail Gore's arguments by pointing out facts about his personal life which, however true (it is a big fuck off mansion), are irrelevant to the argument.

From what I can tell it's symptomatic of the whole issue. Bush avoiding the issue and delaying action by requesting more research into the particulars of climate change even though the data shows it is happening, and that action (like funding/tax cuts for alternate energy sources) is required independent of the fine details of the situation.
Totally agreed.

I also just found that Al Gore tries to offset all Carbon expenditures. So i can respect that. I was a little harsh on him there. But the house thing still just bugs me a bit, ya know. Why wouldn't think about that before you started your crusade?

Of course, I'm not the best person for these discussions, because I think all politicians should be methodically removed from the planet. :D
Last edited by Thinktanx on Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:55 am

albotnz wrote:
Thinktanx wrote:
Tone Deft wrote: Apparently heaven's reserved for George Bush, I'll be in hell, by the bar, long island ice teas, lots of ice, keep 'em coming, pass the ash tray please.

count me in guys.
Had to post this video - Morrissey - There Is A Place In Hell For Me and My Friends (live version, more upbeat than the album.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC8R2awXxXE

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Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:58 am

Thinktanx wrote:I also just found that Al Gore tries to offset all Carbon expenditures. So i can respect that. I was a little harsh on him there.
I read/heard somewhere that if you track that money it's circular going back to his business inerests. I don't recall, I took it as part of the anti-Gore GOP flame war. One thing for sure, Al Gore is part of the upper upper class of US culture that really has no clue what it's like live without privilege. Unfortunately that's where many politicians come from.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

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