watch out Abes...Cakewalk Project5 new pricing = $99!

[jamester]

...they're making up for lost time here no doubt, but.....it's better late than never. too late though? I disagree....it all depends on who has the better combination of features and price.....and that will be dictated in future versions of each. Is the GUI not as pretty as LIVE? I personally think so, but at the same time....there's plenty of other folks that dig the P5 interface more than Live, so.....

I just mean "too late" in that years have gone by now, where for instance Live's user-base has grown tremendously while P5 has remained stalled in its tracks. Maybe it's never too late, but at some point one has to look at how far behind they are and decide whether it's worth it to continue on.

Further, I'd honestly worry that they've made it too cheap now! It's a sad reality that the marketplace doesn't take cheap programs as seriously as expensive programs...I've seen this a lot with Reaper recently. Most people want their stuff expensive for "status symbol" purposes, even though they probably use the crack anyways cuz they can't afford it! It's ridiculous, but it is a factor IMO...

I think someone in the company smacked management on the head and told them that they shouldn't neglect P5 like they did as obvious as it is a Live clone and pretty much it's direct competitor - it's a no brainer to see how well LIVE is doing. I like to think they huddled up together and re-strategized, but who knows.....time will tell.

I can't argue about the robustness and stability of Dimension Pro.......it's a helluva product, built by Rene (Z3Ta) and crew.....so if that and Rapture is a sign of things to come......I like to think they are getting their shit together.

First, considering Cake just went through some major layoffs I'd say there's been a LOT of head-smacking going on, but I'm not sure it's going to lead to improved marketing. In fact, there might not even be a "marketing dept" anymore! Cake's a small company which just got even smaller.

Secondly, I agree 100% about Rene and his instruments. Dim Pro is great, I use it all the time! Cake's credit here is in letting him do his thing, and I hope they continue that. Cake seem to be striving mostly for the "beginners" market these days, as further evidenced by their new "virtual instruments" coming out soon...<yawn>

[woodie]

PS, it also doesn't have any equivalent to Live's warp markers - a pretty fundamental feature of what Live is.

It kinda looks like a Live-wannabe in the sense that some elements of the GUI design are directly lifted from Ableton. But as soon as you start to dig you find it is not really proper competition at all, because fundamental features of what makes Live so special are simply not there.

I think that Cakewalk saw how successful Live is becoming and thought they would make a rival... but maybe they wrongly assumed people bought Live for its GUI design/workflow. I think what actually impressed most of us into buying Live is its amazing audio warping ability and gapless engine. That's certainly what grabbed - and has kept - me

Ahhh! I was going to answer your other message, but then I read the last paragraph in this post of yours.

That's it, headquest - you don't know it, but you hit the nail right on the head. Every person has a different way of doing things - what's important to you, may not be important to the next person and so on. SO....as a reply to your post - the warping ability and gapless engine had nothing to do with my reason to go for Live - it's your opposite that was my desire - the GUI/Creative Workflow/Session View! In fact I don't use samples in my music so I have no need for the warp features - nearly all VST or guitar.

anyway....that's the beauty of having choices!

[headquest]

Further, I'd honestly worry that they've made it too cheap now! It's a sad reality that the marketplace doesn't take cheap programs as seriously as expensive programs...I've seen this a lot with Reaper recently.

I'm sure that's true in fact. Sonar (and Cakewalk Pro before that) has always been way cheaper than Cubase or Logic, but has simply been branded by many as a "poor man's Cubase". A pretty unfair criticism imho, but it has stuck, simply because they chose PRICE as their defining point to compete (rather than breakthrough innovation).

And given that Cubase and Logic have always remained popular and very dominant, without reducing their prices to compete with SONAR, I think it unlikely that Ableton will chose to compete on those terms either. Choosing to compete on the basis of price seems to make it easy for a programme to be completely dismissed as a non-contender.

Reaper is indeed another classic example (as is Mackie Tracktion - same thing there). Reaper has been pigeon-holed as the king of shareware, and there it will undoubtedly now remain.

It all shows how entrenched Digidesign, Steinberg and Apple are at the top of the tree. The really impressive thing is that Ableton do seem to have been accepted into those ranks now, and I guess the rising price is simply a reflection of that.

[woodie]

Edit: You have Adam A7s, you lucky sod. (But I have a Sub 8 at least )

yep...don't mess with my Adams! They are friggin' awesome. my wife is jealous as I have a new girlfriend.

Oooo...a sub 8 - delicious! I know better though; the wife would never approve something like that as I already drive her (and the kids) crazy with the 7's + the bass end is plenty enough for me.......at least right now.

guys...this is ridiculous.....i REALLY need to get some work done today!

[popslut]

Golden Rule to slash 60%, huh? well...as a Marketing Major myself, popslut....that's a new one I tell ya.

Obviously not a Sarcasm Major though eh?

nope...no scarcasm there buddy....

No, no woodie - I meant I was being sarcastic.

It's a golden rule of marketing that when your product is selling well you always slash the price of it by 60%.

...is a sarcastic way of saying... oh never mind.

Have a nice day.

[mbenigni]

I own both P5v2 and Live 6, and well... I haven't bothered to reinstall P5 since my last rebuild. I think that says it all. Or another way of saying the same thing: I bought P5 first and was compelled to buy Live after the fact because P5 has so many blind spots. v2.5 makes me curious, but not curious enough to invest the time, now that Live is paid for. If they'd come up to speed sooner, I might have stayed on.

I was always a big Cakewalk loyalist, but P5 just had (has?) some ridiculous shortcomings. That it took them years to expose all of the inputs exposed by your sound card's driver, for instance, is crazy. And I don't see anything in that list about improving the gimpy routing features. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It's really awesome that this upgrade is free, but frankly it's too little too late for me. Some of these are borderline bug fixes.

Now, on the other hand... Live is a spendy proposition for the hobbyist, and for anyone who hasn't already taken the plunge, $99 for P5 is an excellent value. Frankly, $99 is a reasonable just to get your hands on Dimension LE, and then maybe upgrade to the VST later. I spent much more for P5 and that's really all I took away from it.

[Poster]

The price has crashed because nobody is buying it.

that was my first thought as well..
there's more than meets the eyes in this..
99,- cannot be the real price..

plus;
putting P5 in the market should've been quite cheap because,
- P5 is probably based on Sonar's engine..
- low to none R&D costs because P5's concept is stolen from Live
- they dropped PSYN, DS864, and Cyclone, so no development costs for that anymore..
- Dimension Pro LE included, but that's being developed with 'other' money..
so quite cheap to include the LE version..
- PC side development only..

obviously Cakewalk is making the real money with other products so therefore they can drop the price on P5..

Ableton has only 1 product so can't really drop the price to something like 99,-
If Cakewalk only had P5 it sure was in the region of 500-600 as well..

and adding to that;

I honestly think this price will not continue..
Once they got 'enough' people on board, price is rising again..

Seriously; they must be losing money on $99,-

[woodie]

I just mean "too late" in that years have gone by now, where for instance Live's user-base has grown tremendously while P5 has remained stalled in its tracks. Maybe it's never too late, but at some point one has to look at how far behind they are and decide whether it's worth it to continue on.

Further, I'd honestly worry that they've made it too cheap now! It's a sad reality that the marketplace doesn't take cheap programs as seriously as expensive programs...I've seen this a lot with Reaper recently. Most people want their stuff expensive for "status symbol" purposes, even though they probably use the crack anyways cuz they can't afford it! It's ridiculous, but it is a factor IMO...

on the too late bit, jamester - as I mentioned earlier....I think it all depends on how bad the company wants the business and whether or not they can afford to get there. just look at xbox vs PS3 vs Nintendo......and Microsoft jumped in long after the other 2 have been around, BUT! they have the money to do so. So while it's tough to catch up for sure....it's definitely possible.

I totally agree with your view on the cheap vs expensive bit.....it's funny how all that works, so there's alot of psychology that goes into it as well. This is exactly the reason why companies forever have been selling products and price it like $19.95 or $199.95.

Reaper, I think....is going to be a DAW to be reckoned with, if not already....I'm definitely keeping my eye on that one as the rate Justin is spitting out the updates....it's crazy. I think pricing is that low is his way of getting back at the "big company" pricing schemes now that he's (most probably) filthy rich from selling Winamp to AOL; he probably doesn't need the money from Reaper and doing it to keep himself busy and probably because he just enjoys coding. Good on him!

yeah I see that too.....it does look like they're aiming alot now for the "beginner musician market", but who knows....I'm not in the business, so maybe that's a bigger market than we all assume it is.

[Sales Dude McBoob]

You guys are geeking out on the MI industry too much here.

Really. It's not that interesting!

[woodie]

...is a sarcastic way of saying... oh never mind.

Have a nice day.

wires are getting crossed here, popslut.....so you have a nice day too.

[jamester]

You guys are geeking out on the MI industry too much here.

Really. It's not that interesting!

Speak for yourself.

I'm looking into getting a job in the industry, in fact I almost moved back to Boston to work for Cake a couple years ago. So personally, I'm very interested in the trends and accomplishments (and failures) of these companies...

[woodie]

Now, on the other hand... Live is a spendy proposition for the hobbyist, and for anyone who hasn't already taken the plunge, $99 for P5 is an excellent value. Frankly, $99 is a reasonable just to get your hands on Dimension LE, and then maybe upgrade to the VST later. I spent much more for P5 and that's really all I took away from it.

yep...for the less fortunate that don't have the money for Live.....it's surely a viable solution if they want a Live-like environment.

OK, let me clear the air here for a minute - what I've been trying to say here is:

with the Project5 price drop + recent v2.5 free update + from what I see is a renewed push on the part of Cakewalk to reach out to its customers + Live 6 update from v5 + recent issues + Live 7 in the horizon - I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

So....look at this way, people - we all NEED Project5 to succeed because the better it gets - the more pressure Ableton will have on delivering better updates and maybe re-adjust its pricing = the better for us. Do you want the Abes to become too relaxed, take their time and charge whatever the hell they want (like they are already)?

this is Business 101 - that's why "competition" is good/healthy, so as a Live user....no, I was not overly impressed with the Live6 update esp. for $119. Yes, I want video, but I want it on a timeline - P5 doesn't have that - Sonar does - so I'm sure P5 will eventually get it and Live will eventually get video on a timeline, but heck....we need some serious competition to kick the companies in the ass and into high gear.

[headquest]

Yes, I want video, but I want it on a timeline - P5 doesn't have that - Sonar does - so I'm sure P5 will eventually get it and Live will eventually get video on a timeline, but heck....we need some serious competition to kick the companies in the ass and into high gear.

There's another interesting point though. Cakewalk have had a self-made dilema over he past couple of years and it's this: how to distinguish between (cheap) Project 5 and (less cheap) Sonar Producer. There have been some points where P5 seemed to get better features first (e.g. PSYN, although personally I think that synth is rank ) and SONAR users began to shout.

Video in the timeline is imo likely to remain one of the SONAR-exclusive features that P5 won't get, simply because there is only SO FAR that they can ever take P5 without shooting themselves/SONAR in the foot

[woodie]

Yes, I want video, but I want it on a timeline - P5 doesn't have that - Sonar does - so I'm sure P5 will eventually get it and Live will eventually get video on a timeline, but heck....we need some serious competition to kick the companies in the ass and into high gear.

There's another interesting point though. Cakewalk have had a self-made dilema over he past couple of years and it's this: how to distinguish between (cheap) Project 5 and (less cheap) Sonar Producer. There have been some points where P5 seemed to get better features first (e.g. PSYN, although personally I think that synth is rank ) and SONAR users began to shout.

Video in the timeline is imo likely to remain one of the SONAR-exclusive features that P5 won't get, simply because there is only SO FAR that they can ever take P5 without shooting themselves/SONAR in the foot

well...that's true to an extent and it's easy for us to see it that way - even Rapture/Dimension Pro look virtually similar and I've wondered why Dimension never got the update to add the features Rapture has. I'm not a synth programmer, maybe there's a good explanation for that.....OR....maybe it's for marketing/selling reasons....? 2 separate products = 2 sources of revenue! While I'm not over the moon about that.....I'm sure it's the same reason why the Abes are selling Operator/Sampler separately, but with one BIG difference - Rapture/Dimension Pro has a bigger possible market than Operator/Sampler.

Ponder this: what if Sonar goes towards the ProTools market and P5 sticks to Home Studio market...being that it is pattern-based instead of traditional but still has the capability of recording audio - just like Live?

There's no doubt they are bordering each other on certain features, but you could say that about Sony Vegas/Acid as well - both have video on a timeline. I'm sure there's a "master roadmap" internally that we're just not privy too in both companies, but it's fun to think about it nevertheless.

[3dot...]

Energy xt2 is also interesting ....75$... and runs on linux !!! (and passes sysex...)
...and reaper...
...and what about open source??? you've got PD, VVVV (for now...) etc. which really will complete any DAW...
Ableton and other developers should really be on their toes right about now...
Catering to their Users every wish...