Live audio quality?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
ChiDJ
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Post by ChiDJ » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:55 pm

I'll take the challenge LM,

But, there have to be some rules:

I would recommend summing of at least 5 audio files, (identical 24 bit files to be used in each DAW)

Pro-Tools
LIVE
Logic
DP
Cubase

-Kik

-Bass

-drum loop

-guitar

-Vocal lead

All 4 tracks are sent to a main buss in each DAW and exported as a .wav from each DAW.

No effects no EQ all tracks are set to -2 db on each channel with no panning and the master buss output set at -2 db.

Track length: 30 seconds

Files will then be posted as 24 bit .wav on someone's server, (uncompressed)

Then, we can all listen and decide if we hear a difference.

I know you want to prove your grand point by actually expecting us to be able to name one DAW from the other, but I would say, "Uh - Not Gonna Happen"

we can label each track exported .wav by a number (1-5) and only the creator of the files would know which DAW they came from.

Put em' up and take a poll

"Do you hear a difference?"

Now put your money wear your mouth is and get your hairless balls into action lm. :lol:

Tod
"Let you're body feel the sound! Let it cover you up and down!"

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b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:59 pm

ChiDJ wrote: No effects no EQ all tracks are set to -2 db on each channel with no panning and the master buss output set at -2 db.
I disagree with this totally...after all that's been said in this thread, what the fuck point is there in doing a test like this ? ...I can tell you now they'll all sound identical.

anyone who can do this test for us, should use some chain of effects & EQ on the sounds....and use the exact same presets in the other daws. naturally, the FX/eq would have to be third party ones. if there was a sure-fire way of adding identical automation in each daw...that would be worth testing too

lets do a blindfold test on real-world usage....not just rendering wavs to wav with almost zero processing
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leisuremuffin
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Post by leisuremuffin » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:04 pm

oh yeah, no doubt they'll sound identical with *that* test. Shit, the files will be bit for bit identical in that case. It's already been proven here by tarekith.

i don't think that the real world test will work though. Unfortunately the user will be more familiar with some of the platforms than others and will do a better job as mixer on one or the other.....


.lm.
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tylenol
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Post by tylenol » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:12 pm

Robert Henke wrote:Hi Krisstoff,
the topic comes up in regular intervalls, and this is why some folks react a bit harsh to it. People here on the forum did a lot of tests and as a result allways came to the conclusion that nothing is wrong with Live. However, as a reaction to those threads we also did internal tests and comparisons between other DAWs and we found out that if you look careful enough you'll find slight differences between the ideal world and reality in pretty much all DAWs, and that Live is not exeptionally bad here. We are talking about distortion or noise as a result of internal rounding errors and things like this in the range of -180dB to maybe -130dB.... I have serious doubt that this is audible unless you do the most most most extreme treatments.

If you really experience audible issues in a specific case, there must be a simple explanation and a solution for it. The notion of "something sounds muddy" unfortunately will not help so much, since if we cannot track it down to a specific problem, we cannot improve things.

Talking about improving: as a result of the tests we did, we could indeed improve some details, and those improvements will be part of the next major update. But
none of those things IMHO has the power to make a track sound more or less muddy, because even the slightest EQing of some fraction of a dB would be a magnitude more significant.

Best, Robert
Thanks for posting this -- I opened this thread expecting more of the same nonsense (honestly, the longer I do this stuff, the more and more I hate non-quantitative completely metaphorical descriptions of audio), and found this instead. This post will come in handy next time one of these threads starts up somewhere else.

b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:16 pm

leisuremuffin wrote: i don't think that the real world test will work though. Unfortunately the user will be more familiar with some of the platforms than others and will do a better job as mixer on one or the other.....
I beg to differ holmes,
other than testing automation too...its a test just as straightforward/simple as the one chidj suggested or the ones tarekith did, just with an idenitical [3rd party] chain of FX laid over the sounds. its still just static rendering, no mixing skills required

I reckon the automation is doable too, say for example a master volume envelope going from the same max volume down to silence, over the exact same amount of time. .. .. . .? or actually, maybe not that. but there's probably some way of applying identical automation across the daws..
Last edited by b0unce on Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChiDJ
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Post by ChiDJ » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:22 pm

b0unce wrote:
ChiDJ wrote: No effects no EQ all tracks are set to -2 db on each channel with no panning and the master buss output set at -2 db.
I disagree with this totally...after all that's been said in this thread, what the fuck point is there in doing a test like this ? ...I can tell you now they'll all sound identical.

anyone who can do this test for us, should use some chain of effects & EQ on the sounds....and use the exact same presets in the other daws. naturally, the FX/eq would have to be third party ones. if there was a sure-fire way of adding identical automation in each daw...that would be worth testing too

lets do a blindfold test on real-world usage....not just rendering wavs to wav with almost zero processing
Did I misunderstand?

Isn't this debate about the audio engine of each DAW?

Adding effects and EQ increases the variability would not allow as specific a comparison.

I take it neither of you have any experience with setting up a research study?

Although you both espouse to be logical, I fail to see your point now.
(If there ever really was any) :roll:
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b0unce
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Post by b0unce » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:27 pm

ChiDJ wrote: Did I misunderstand?

Isn't this debate about the audio engine of each DAW?

Adding effects and EQ increases the variability would not allow as specific a comparison.

I take it neither of you have any experience with setting up a research study?

Although you both espouse to be logical, I fail to see your point now.
(If there ever really was any) :roll:
Ya, you mis-understood.
adding the EXACT same effects and the EXACT same EQ with the EXACT same presets should still allow a specific comparison. why wouldn't it ? You're test is useless holmes. as useless as tits on a bull.
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Poster
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Post by Poster » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:48 pm

..

evernaut
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Post by evernaut » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:33 pm

I've done tests...I recorded exactly the same performance of acoustic guitar fed into Live and Digital Performer simultaneously through the same pre and compared the results at the same level through the same monitors. Everything that could be equal was equal.


You can guess the rest.

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Post by Poster » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:38 pm

I have no interest in this debate either, but want to add this..

there's too much talk over nothing, really.. but I guess that's what keeps all the interwebforums going..
if you're an engineer I can understand all this tech talk,
but from a musicians point of view, debating Live's audio quality can be shortned to a few words;
you like it or you don't..
Live is quality software, its succes is total proof of that and it's core is non debatable i.m.o...
If there is REAL and obvious inferior behaviour; proof it, but not with marginal arguments or subjective feelings..
otherwise; do music with another DAW of choice if you think it really gets in the way of your creative process and goals..

Looking at todays computer based musicians I think the whole process of making music can get too theoretical..
It can be seen as a logical conclusion to what software offers these days;
from rough sketches to mastering can be done at home, with one affordable package, within everyones reach..
In the non software days, musicians who could not afford equipment other than instruments,
would not have argued the quality of the whole process that much because they weren't confronted with these issues on a daily basis..
Making music is a first priority, technical finalizing something of later worries, or not even..

Using software almost demands getting knowledgeable about things that don't have anything to do with the actual process of making music and expressing one self..
In the end this knowledge gets in the way of the creative processes of alot of people..
Making music has become a thing of the masses; everone is doing it, everyone claims knowledge and therefore too much useless talk is generated, less actual music is made..

People focus too much on sound itself and quality of sound, not the actual music..
What do my ears tell me vs. what does this magazine say about what I hear or should hear?
Alot of people just carry too much of the wrong luggage..

Conclusion; use the demo before you buy :lol:

Poster
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Post by Poster » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:55 pm

also..

this thread was posted at 20:00 pm

at the current time, 22:52 pm

936 people watched this topic

mass hysteria... my point exactly..

LJN
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Post by LJN » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:29 pm

This is a topic that keeps on coming back. No smoke without fire, they say... If Live's audio quality is as good as some (incl Mr Henke) claim, why then are so many people bringing up this question again and again? When quicksearching Sonar's and Logic's user groups forums I can't find any equivalent discussions going on. Why not? Do Live users have ultra sensitive hearing or is there really a problem with Live's audio quality?

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:32 pm

LJN wrote:This is a topic that keeps on coming back. No smoke without fire, they say... If Live's audio quality is as good as some (incl Mr Henke) claim, why then are so many people bringing up this question again and again? When quicksearching Sonar's and Logic's user groups forums I can't find any equivalent discussions going on. Why not? Do Live users have ultra sensitive hearing or is there really a problem with Live's audio quality?
because any asshole can get an account and post anything they want without knowing what they're talking about. it's just some jackass with an opinion. :roll:

what gets under the skin of some of us is that people say shit that's not true and other jackasses repeat it all without ever testing what they're saying or even understanding it. lm has pointed out a few people who have pulled off the BULLSHIT move of talking about shit they don't understand.

...off to the other forums to start 'sound quality' threads. ;)


I'm all for finding and pointing out the blemishes in Live, that's the best way to improve it, TESTING, but the work of the troll is so much simpler.
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At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
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rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:36 pm

Robert why dont you put the end to all thatand licence this VST for the next update
http://www.sonicfinger.com/DeadQuietenator.html

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:38 pm

OSX only, windows support isn't coming until 2005.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

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