i would like to personal thank apple for logic 8 ...

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:38 pm

Can you please change the title to say "personally" instead of "personal"? That's been getting on my nerves for the past 4 days. I thought I would get over it but I can't seem to.

Thanks! Carry on.

sparklepuff · Post by **sparklepuff** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:42 pm

Might as well capitalize the "I", the "A" in apple, and the "L" in logic while you're at it.

beats me · Post by **beats me** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:29 pm

sparklepuff wrote:Might as well capitalize the "I", the "A" in apple, and the "L" in logic while you're at it.

Fuck! Now that is going to stand out for me too. In the name of all that is holy please fix the title!!!

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:02 pm

I use Logic, and I do think it's a better deal than Live in every respect.

I love Live, but the truth is that other sequencers have come down in price over the years, (Logic, DP, Cubase) Live has not. Live has two mediocre paid plug ins, Sampler, and Operator. I know people like them, but they are really way too expensive when compared to the competition. Seriously, compare Operator to FM8 or Zebra 2 etc. Compare Sampler to Kontakt, and it's insane the difference in pure features, for not a ton more. In OSX anyway ther is a $49 sampler that does 90% of what Sampler can do...... it's just nuts to buy Sampler unless you're looking to help out Ableton HQ grow.

Ableton will have to step up to the price structure of Logic, I used to tell people to get Live over Logic, ($499 VS 999 before Logic Studio 8 ), but now I would have to say the real bang for your buck is in Logic.

I can't say anymore that Session View is worth the trade off feature wise with Logic, and Ableton I hope are aware of this as well. The only reason to buy Live anymore IMO is for live sets firing clips via MIDI.

Just the shear difference in speed between working in the Arrange page in Logic VS the Arrangement View in Live is worth $499 IMO.

Queue the fanboy flames.......

konc3pt.sF · Post by **konc3pt.sF** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:52 am

I'm eager to see what Live 7 has to offer. I'm hoping to see sampler and operator as part of the upgrade. Considering fully blown logic 8 costs $500 with about 64 GB of content. It comes out to that Live 7 should be a free update to Live 6 users.

condra · Post by **condra** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:37 am

Firstly, Igor etc, its perfectly healthy to discuss other software here, especially if it means pointing out reasons for Ableton to make Live more competitivly priced, bundled or featured.

konc3pt.sF, a free upgrade to Live 7 is very unlikely.

I've no doubt in my mind though, that Ableton are going to do their best to keep Live competitive and a desireable product.

To do that though, they will have to offer a signigicant increase in the value-for-money stakes, be it by cutting prices, vastly improving the core application, or bundling more in terms of instruments and content, or a combination of these.

I'm dying to find out more about Live 7. Wether or not I move to Logic may depend on what is on offer in Live 7, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation.

nathannn · Post by **nathannn** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:49 am

when i was bitching over a year ago about lives price i got a ton of shit.
now that logic 8 is out at a lower price people seem to be joining me on the thought that live cost to much.
im so way ahead of my time.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:23 am

condra wrote: I'm dying to find out more about Live 7. Wether or not I move to Logic may depend on what is on offer in Live 7, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation.

What Logic 7 (after a few bugfix updates) did for me was to make me realize that though I really like Live, the workflow is geared towards the mouse, large mouse movements and even (on the mac) option click dragging the tracks to make them all open up vertically.... not any where near as elegant as the magnifying glass in Logic.
Basically I could have stuck with Live 5.2. They added dual processor support then. At this point Live's big advantage is it's Session View, the Arrangement View isn't anything like Logic, Pro Tools, or Cubase in terms of ease of use.
The
K.eep
I.t
S.imple
S.tupid

Approach of Live gets in the way after you've been with the program for a month. I'm all for easy access to a feature, and the click/drag down to zoom in horizontally is pretty cool, but it would be nice if you could zoom in both vertically and horizontally by click dragging anywhere in the arrangement like you can in other applications.

Anyway, I see no reason to abandon it, but I'm having a hard time thinking of ways that they can get my cash for an upgrade. Maybe if they really did some workflow things to make it actually easy to surgically edit in Live. No event list is a strange one to me...... Hopefully the Cycling 74 partnership pulls some amazing things together!
People over the years have wanted Emagic/Apple to buy Cycling so they could see Max/MSP integrated into the environment in Logic, maybe we'll see that sort of integration into Live instead? If they keep the same price point and do that, then Logic and the rest would really have something to worry about!

condra · Post by **condra** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:07 am

Interesting post Machinesworking.

I think its a "juggling act" for Ableton, trying to keep their customers happy, and still encourage new ones.

Seems half of their users want more/better DAW features, and half want more/better performance features.
Personally, I want both, and I dont think that's too much to ask.

I think the K.I.S.S approach is great for newcomers to the package, but becomes restrictive when you want more advanced stuff.

One of the challenges for Ableton is to add features and capabilities to Live, without losing sight of the "elegant" workflow they are so proud of but there are some fundamental DAW features missing which people have been crying out for, for quite some time.

Personally, I really hope Ableton add many DAW features, "elegant" or otherwise.

konc3pt.sF · Post by **konc3pt.sF** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:13 am

condra wrote: I'm dying to find out more about Live 7. Wether or not I move to Logic may depend on what is on offer in Live 7, and I'm sure I'm not the only one in that situation.

^no you're not. plus there is new reason coming out.

Machinesworking wrote: I'm having a hard time thinking of ways that they can get my cash for an upgrade. Maybe if they really did some workflow things to make it actually easy to surgically edit in Live.

^exactly, so this bascially puts you in a position where you have to make a move. either you dish out the extra dough and enjoy the new enhancements or you dont.

or get stuck with the current features and be not so happy hearing bout new improvements of Live7 and Logic 8. either way you gotta make a move to get your money's worth.

with cubase 4 being at $399 and Logic $499. there is really no room for ableton to ask for more money.

3dot... · Post by **3dot...** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:56 am

nathannn wrote:when i was bitching over a year ago about lives price i got a ton of shit.
now that logic 8 is out at a lower price people seem to be joining me on the thought that live cost to much.
im so way ahead of my time.

When you got a 'unique' product... like ableton has...

a price drop is unlikely... thats what the LE version is for I guesss...

more 'free' content will have to be the way live will enhance...
either that...
or making live MORE unique
and sorry but logic8 doesnt cut it for me in a live situation...
It does look like a very powerful tool for composing and recording though... (looks like it can wipe its ass with Cubase..)
and has got literally a TONs of added content...

cyberbeats · Post by **cyberbeats** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:48 pm

why don'y use both?
The live session view is a unique feature and i can't no more live

without it.
But if i'll buy logic i would then export single tracks form live
and import them in logic 8, to mix the entire song.
I already own live and its plugins,
and adding logic could only be a benefit.

rarelyseen · Post by **rarelyseen** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:32 pm

studiologic wrote:
fact 3, i have paid for a total of 2 upgrades @ $129 a piece.

fact 4, combining the orginal purchase with the two upgrade is total of $660.

fact 5, with the price and feature of logic 8, sampler and operator should be free.

Well, I think I must have spent about 3000 EUR since Logic 3 for the original purchase, upgrades and instruments. As some of you may not know, plugins like EVP73, the EXS sampler and later the Space Designer where add-on products and NOT included in Logic (not even in the platinum version) until Apple bought Emagic. The Space Designer plugin alone was 600 EUR, which is more than the whole Logic 8 suite costs nowadays!

In my opinion the current Logic pricing is absolutely ridiculous. It is more than obvious that it is entirely financed by Apple hardware (or the hardware they will sell in the furure). Not that I want to complain about low prices - of course I'm very happy to pay only 50% for a Class A product (which Logic indeed is) - but I seriously doubt that such a pricing policy is financially viable for other companies which do not sell computer hardware.

I'm still not sure whether or not I should get the Logic 8 upgrade. I abandoned Logic since I fully converted to Live 6 last year and the Logic plugins have never really convinced me either (despite the space designer), so I see no reason why I should buy it.

And as far as Live's arranger goes, it's actually quite powerful as soon as you get used to it. I always hated it in the beginning, but now that I do all my tracks solely in Live, I kinda feel like it's super easy to work with it.

However, Live is worth every single penny, so stop moaning about the price.

Ah...and I should say hello to the forum (that's my 1st post, but I'm a long-time spectator). HELLO FORUM!

C.