only difference is in workflow...morerecords wrote:After thinkning about it more, I would definitely get Cubase. Live audio engine really does sound pretty crummy, I don't know what it is.. Reason has something similar. It's like, they must have coded some sort of multiband limiter somewhere in the app, you can hear it when you introduce varying lower frequencies, they sort of 'automatically' make room for one another, without any calculation on yourpart. What is starnge is that even when you render all tracks, it's carried over.Proppelrheads did something like this too, and while it helped several mediocre engineers and achieved a level of standardization, it's abvious when you imprt your stems or individual multitracks into a pro DAW, what was peaking or distorting in Live still has many db of headrroom in Logic or Pro Tools....
Cubase is prob the way to go, Logic really is fine for mxigin, buyt trying to write or sequence in Logic is always a royal pain in the ass.
Logic, or save up for waves?
just for the record: i just tried to explain how i interpretted what he said, i didn't comment anything about live.esky wrote: And i small comment to this insane workstation debate...: If one doesn't get a proper mix out of Live 7, he shouldn't think about changing to Logic, Cubase or whatever. He should better work on his mixing skills. Live has way enough sound- and plugin quality to get a professional mix out of it. If not, it's the people who screw it, not the tools...
But again, i still think grouping of faders should be there. Other than that, it satisfyes me and the easy things to reach like peak db's and such are comfortable to use (click-to-reset) and easy to read. But i do prefer mixing in session view, due to the top down layout
there are many things that 'should' be there matie...thefool wrote:just for the record: i just tried to explain how i interpretted what he said, i didn't comment anything about live.esky wrote: And i small comment to this insane workstation debate...: If one doesn't get a proper mix out of Live 7, he shouldn't think about changing to Logic, Cubase or whatever. He should better work on his mixing skills. Live has way enough sound- and plugin quality to get a professional mix out of it. If not, it's the people who screw it, not the tools...
But again, i still think grouping of faders should be there.
I gots me a long list right here...
also...
seems L7 new features introduced many problems...
and I'm not sure they'll all be fixed by the time L8 comes a knockin'....
(see chptr. Live6.0.?)
love it. hate it.
But by adding more and more features you lose the concept of having a slim, straight forward workstation and you end up in having a fat pig like Logic. I think the abes are doing good in adding features very carefully.there are many things that 'should' be there matie...
I gots me a long list right here...
For example this fader grouping thing...: I do it with the send only/return channel feature and it works fine for me. It's a matter of organisation.
And about stability: Often it's more about system configuration. I was lucky to have a former ableton guy to look at my system before i installed Live and it works perfect. If it crashes it's a badly programmened plugin that i installed. It's never the host.
bla bla bla - my system is peerrrrrfffeecccctttt...esky wrote:But by adding more and more features you lose the concept of having a slim, straight forward workstation and you end up in having a fat pig like Logic. I think the abes are doing good in adding features very carefully.there are many things that 'should' be there matie...
I gots me a long list right here...
For example this fader grouping thing...: I do it with the send only/return channel feature and it works fine for me. It's a matter of organisation.
And about stability: Often it's more about system configuration. I was lucky to have a former ableton guy to look at my system before i installed Live and it works perfect. If it crashes it's a badly programmened plugin that i installed. It's never the host.
and I am using an interface with great drivers (multiface)
Being in the buisness of building computer rigs ...I KNOW my system is up to par...
Using Vegas quite flawlessly to edit Videos...with way heavier projects...
and Ive been VJing with it and using L6 with not so many probs.. (midi timing)
no 3rd party stuff in my current setup...
(unless you call outboard 3rd party...)
I'm not asking for 'new' features... I'm asking for 'workflow' and flexibility
simply to better the current state of things...
more flexible key mapping..
modulation options other than the tedious 'clip envelopes'...
undocking devices GUI... (or at least the new 'spectrum' device...)
etc.
live 7 crashes... is choppy... midi timing is crap...
interfacing with it is just a mess...
I am really dissapointed this time...
this V has really got me looking around the market for alternatives
....and that's a shame...
...as I was a fanboy...
well... whatever...
if not use it , I can still go on and tutor it... make some$$$
Then it's time to sell your Live copy, leave this forum forever and cry at other places, Logic User is a good page, for example. Or learn another trade, maybe. Bye bye...ive 7 crashes... is choppy... midi timing is crap...
interfacing with it is just a mess...
I am really dissapointed this time...
this V has really got me looking around the market for alternatives
why the friggin' attitude busta...??esky wrote:Then it's time to sell your Live copy, leave this forum forever and cry at other places, Logic User is a good page, for example. Or learn another trade, maybe. Bye bye...ive 7 crashes... is choppy... midi timing is crap...
interfacing with it is just a mess...
I am really dissapointed this time...
this V has really got me looking around the market for alternatives
I will sell my sw eventually... but I will haunt this forum to the end of time...
go sit on a rock...
I agree with a lot of what you said there, but I think you're being a little impatient3dot... wrote:bla bla bla - my system is peerrrrrfffeecccctttt...esky wrote:But by adding more and more features you lose the concept of having a slim, straight forward workstation and you end up in having a fat pig like Logic. I think the abes are doing good in adding features very carefully.there are many things that 'should' be there matie...
I gots me a long list right here...
For example this fader grouping thing...: I do it with the send only/return channel feature and it works fine for me. It's a matter of organisation.
And about stability: Often it's more about system configuration. I was lucky to have a former ableton guy to look at my system before i installed Live and it works perfect. If it crashes it's a badly programmened plugin that i installed. It's never the host.
and I am using an interface with great drivers (multiface)
Being in the buisness of building computer rigs ...I KNOW my system is up to par...
Using Vegas quite flawlessly to edit Videos...with way heavier projects...
and Ive been VJing with it and using L6 with not so many probs.. (midi timing)
no 3rd party stuff in my current setup...
(unless you call outboard 3rd party...)
I'm not asking for 'new' features... I'm asking for 'workflow' and flexibility
simply to better the current state of things...
more flexible key mapping..
modulation options other than the tedious 'clip envelopes'...
undocking devices GUI... (or at least the new 'spectrum' device...)
etc.
live 7 crashes... is choppy... midi timing is crap...
interfacing with it is just a mess...
I am really dissapointed this time...
this V has really got me looking around the market for alternatives
....and that's a shame...
...as I was a fanboy...
well... whatever...
if not use it , I can still go on and tutor it... make some$$$
I totally agree that it should work when you buy it, and be better in all those ways
we could be still using Live 6 and have no word yet on Live 7 and wait for it to be perfect, but then we might wait 3 years like Logic
I know Ableton has always been really conscious of the fact that as it gets more complex, more problems are created
they have had a much faster release cycle to date than many competitors and they are doing brilliantly. It's not uncommon for a business of any kind to suddenly step up a gear and have to deal with all the extra shit that success brings, like the dispatch of boxes which inundated them to the extent that they couldnt keep up with the speed it was selling
they work incredibly hard in the lead up to a release, and they get it as flawless as they can
but there are a million different things going on inside the program to make it do what it does, and some of these bugs are not easy to find
there are still bugs being addressed that were reported months ago because they have to work their way through an enourmous list with a finite amount of manpower
they will have a stable release before long, and the more you report your problems then the more you could actually help it be sooner
I am a peace loving man.esky wrote:Just for the record...you started friggin me. I was just suggesting that there could be other problems than a host program if there are stability problems. And i didn't mean you personally, 3dot, center of the universe...
the sw is flawed... in a major way. is all I was saying. check out the bug fix list...if you don't bleleive me...
is that a piece of SW you would release...
they sold us a premise and layout for a bunch of features
ableton is my audio sw of choice...has been from v4.
have sold Cubase when I figured I can do just about anything in here
and...btw
esky where do you get your vast knowledge of computers...? !
your advice is golden...
how could I have not seen that...?
(was it an advice? I still cant figure out)
.peace.
It seems random on which systems it run good. Live7 runs great at my windows xp system, no crashes or anything really. (And i don't just open it and stare at it.)
I suppose it must be certain things in it. For example i don't mess around with warping, i just smack in my samples and let it work for me. And then using softsynths; so no idea in warping around since i don't dj.
So for example you mixed the whole thing and finds the hihats for example should be more evident. You just increase hihat and then lower the channel whcih receives the drums to get same output?
and 3dot before you do the same to me since i said which might cause my live not to crash and yours to: i work as a software developer currently
I suppose it must be certain things in it. For example i don't mess around with warping, i just smack in my samples and let it work for me. And then using softsynths; so no idea in warping around since i don't dj.
Well if everything was in it allready we wouldn't be as happy on new releases hehe. But i follow youthere are many things that 'should' be there matie...
I gots me a long list right here...
also...
Yes but still a bit..For example this fader grouping thing...: I do it with the send only/return channel feature and it works fine for me. It's a matter of organisation
So for example you mixed the whole thing and finds the hihats for example should be more evident. You just increase hihat and then lower the channel whcih receives the drums to get same output?
and 3dot before you do the same to me since i said which might cause my live not to crash and yours to: i work as a software developer currently
I know what you are up to with this question, that fader grouping thing's not quite the same as subgrouping, so far i understand that request. Or maybe i don't understand it...So for example you mixed the whole thing and finds the hihats for example should be more evident. You just increase hihat and then lower the channel whcih receives the drums to get same output?
-
morerecords
Wow, ilia. You should re-read. I never once mentioned summing until after I made the statement in question, and again, I've never used the master bus in Live and I have never once made a comment on it.Who peed in your cereal this morning? I was talking about this multiband limiting mystery that both Live and Reason have implemented, I couldn't tell you what it is...it is VERY noticable in the low end, but that has more to do with making techno than anything else. If I made guitar heavy country in Live, I might notice it in a different freq range. but I promise there is something going on. Look, I am not bashing your music app of choice, I am a user as well.
edit: after re-reading, those of you that are disputing my words, I don't think you understood what I was talking about, your responses aren't really releated.
When you are working in Live or Reason, there is something happening before your intention. I can tell you it is frequency dependent, and it is levelling your overall output, a multiband limiter of some sort. I was commenting on my dislike of this function. What is really curious, is that when you render all tracks (as opposed to rendering master) it is still evident, meaning I suspect it is implemented (I am no computer person, sorry if the lingo is incorrect) BEFORE the option to shape your output's freq spectrum. It's in the staging. I also think that maybe the 'pro' DAWs (I know you hate that, but this is not pro functionality) allow for channels to get blown out, without any compensation, but that may have required considerable additional programming to accomplish, and it may be the exact reason people can hear differences in various audio engines to begin with. There IS more headroom available with the same exact audio in PT, Nuendo, or Logic. Now shoot me down all you want, I don't have time for this, so it will have to be my last response for this thread.
and Agina, FUCK WAVES : )
edit: after re-reading, those of you that are disputing my words, I don't think you understood what I was talking about, your responses aren't really releated.
When you are working in Live or Reason, there is something happening before your intention. I can tell you it is frequency dependent, and it is levelling your overall output, a multiband limiter of some sort. I was commenting on my dislike of this function. What is really curious, is that when you render all tracks (as opposed to rendering master) it is still evident, meaning I suspect it is implemented (I am no computer person, sorry if the lingo is incorrect) BEFORE the option to shape your output's freq spectrum. It's in the staging. I also think that maybe the 'pro' DAWs (I know you hate that, but this is not pro functionality) allow for channels to get blown out, without any compensation, but that may have required considerable additional programming to accomplish, and it may be the exact reason people can hear differences in various audio engines to begin with. There IS more headroom available with the same exact audio in PT, Nuendo, or Logic. Now shoot me down all you want, I don't have time for this, so it will have to be my last response for this thread.
and Agina, FUCK WAVES : )
Last edited by morerecords on Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.