Ableton Forum

well i think Reaper is very impressive, and I really respect the honour approach, pay what you can when you can - because let's face it that's what happens and they know that otherwise they'd lock it somehow

I've only had it a short time and I've been absolutely skint, but I've been using it for some work I'm doing and the Rearoute function is invaluable - and EVERY TIME I boot it up I get a message that there is a new version available, hence this thread

The thing with reaper is it's still very new and it is moving so amazingly fast it really wont be long before it;s caught up to everyone in every respect, in fact it is already ahead in some ways, like routing for instance

so I think the fact that you only buy direct is only ever a good thing in this instance because you keep up to date

anyway, the whole point is, this program is ahead in Timestretching options and Live completely relies on timestretching as a core part of the program, so while the link of Gerhard talking about 10 QA people testing it all is very valid, I still think they should really think about that

Of course, Ableton don;t need to license anything - they are perfectly capable of creating their own new mode, and I suggest Beats Mode 2.

The issue many people have with 'Complex' is the loss of transients and the issue that people have with Beats is the "bump a bump a bump" as it chops it all up into 16ths.

I think that an idea situation would see Beats chop the audio only when necessary rather than on every 16th, and in addition use some trickery to smooth out the 'held' notes.

There are a number of options open to them if they allow a bit more CPU headroom for the process, if many users would tolerate 3% per clip, then there is some leeway to take another look at what Beats could do.

What I'd most like is for t timestretch that can cope with my acoustic piano recording. None of the existing modes are very good with piano. Beats is probably the best, so yes, Beat 2 may well be the best ever!

@ jamester: agree totally about Sonar - I prefer Reaper too. If I didn't have Audition as well I would pick it up, although in good conscience I would need to pay for the full price.

the latest beta of REAPER features

Parameter modulation support: drive FX parameters from LFO or audio control signals (unlimited sidechaining!)

this means any FX parameter on any channel can be modulated - either by native LFOs or by audio signals from other channels. how fucking kickarse is that?

headquest wrote:Vote for a better timestretch in the Ableton survey (see homepage).

I certainly made this one of my top three requests, and if others do the same it will show up in the survey results as a popular FR.

Can someone explain me what's wrong with this timestretching and why reaper's timestretching is better?

spkey wrote:

headquest wrote:Vote for a better timestretch in the Ableton survey (see homepage).

I certainly made this one of my top three requests, and if others do the same it will show up in the survey results as a popular FR.

Can someone explain me what's wrong with this timestretching and why reaper's timestretching is better?

REAPER 2 uses the newer and better Ealstique Pro v2, while Live's Complex mode uses Elastique Efficient (v1) which is more CPU friendly but not such high quality algorithm.

On some material, e.g. acoustic piano recordings, I find that Live's timestretch modes don't produce results that I can use in a production.

please no.

I already *HATE* complex mode. I don't want anything else from that company in my software. It's a cpu hog, it sounds like shit, and in my experience it's been the number one culprit in causing "skips" in audio on my setup. I NEVER use complex mode anymore because of this.


Whatever, if you guys all want it so bad, fine. But I really don't and don't want to have to pay for it, and i don't want the abes to support that company. In my opinion it is a shit product.



just another opinion, that's all.



.lm.

headquest wrote: On some material, e.g. acoustic piano recordings, I find that Live's timestretch modes don't produce results that I can use in a production.

It has to be said:

timestretching, even the highest quality available now, will always change the sound in some way.

I don't think anyone serious about making a finsished mix of a track would time stretch a recording of a "real" instrument.


If you are unable to commit to a tempo when recording a piano part, the best you can do is use a multi sample and midi. It won't sound as natural as the real thing, but it's bound to be better than a time stretch of the real thing.


.lm.

just tried the demo.. arranging feels better than in live.. though that's not hard

leisuremuffin wrote: It has to be said: timestretching, even the highest quality available now, will always change the sound in some way.

True, but using (for example) Radius timestretch (in Audition) I can get results that are useable far more frequently than using Live's timestretch...

There's no harm in wanting a better timestretch. It is surely defeatest to just dismiss the idea. Live has a timestretch that is often good, but it can be improved on, so why not?

I don't think anyone serious about making a finsished mix of a track would time stretch a recording of a "real" instrument.

If you are unable to commit to a tempo when recording a piano part, the best you can do is use a multi sample and midi. It won't sound as natural as the real thing, but it's bound to be better than a time stretch of the real thing.

MIDI + VST is certainly another option, but in Live it is generally possible to timestretch most audio. It would be good to improve that to *ALL* audio.

I'm also not just interested in minor timing correction (although that is useful) but small tempi changes for example. Even changing by a couple of ticks can ruin a piano track in Live, or even a simple bass guitar part.

headquest wrote: There's no harm in wanting a better timestretch. It is surely defeatest to just dismiss the idea. Live has a timestretch that is often good, but it can be improved on, so why not?

I'm not against improving time stretch. I am against anything having to do with the company that made the current complex mode. I think it's terrible and i'm not interested in an improved version of it.



And the other stuff is just philosophy. Oustside of DJ'ing, i will never use timestretch unless it is to apply it as an effect. I just don't have a compelling reason to do it within the way that i write music.



.lm.

leisuremuffin wrote: I'm not against improving time stretch. I am against anything having to do with the company that made the current complex mode. I think it's terrible and i'm not interested in an improved version of it.

It's actually an improved version of a different timestretch though. "Pro" was always in a different league, version 2 even more so. It does sound much better than complex, which I agree is fairly poor for most things.

And the other stuff is just philosophy. Oustside of DJ'ing, i will never use timestretch unless it is to apply it as an effect. I just don't have a compelling reason to do it within the way that i write music.

For you it may be "philosophy", but for some other users it is "practice". Not the way you work... fine. But for those who want a production quality timestretch like the Radius one, let's have it!

In the meantime, Melodyne 2's Direct Note Access is going to render these debates obsolete anyway. I think that people will work differently with audio in the near future as a result of this extraordinary technology development

headquest wrote: In the meantime, Melodyne 2's Direct Note Access is going to render these debates obsolete anyway. I think that people will work differently with audio in the near future as a result of this extraordinary technology development

Maybe. And i won't say that i wouldn't check out using such technology for effect.


However, it is my philosophy, and yes i understand it's personal, that i will always aim to track a good performance rather than spend time editing and manipulating a poor one to make it work. I like the feel of an actual performance when it comes to things like guitar, bass, keys, vocals. At least when it comes to long phrases....


.lm.

You're not going to get it for free! It'll be in Live 8.

headquest wrote:Vote for a better timestretch in the Ableton survey (see homepage).

Where ?