Ableton Forum

adventurepants_ wrote:mac users are the last people on earth that should be giving computer advice.

Just wanted to say your full of shit, arrogant, and an idiot.
YOU are defining yourself by the computer you use to at least the degree that the stereotype you have of people using macs are. Therefore you're a fucking hypocrite.

Nothing less interesting than a person who defines themselves by their supposed superior choices in clothes, cars, computers, wine, whatever, doesn't matter... if you think your shit smells like roses because you can debug Windows, and saved money on your laptop......... well bad news buddy, your breath still stinks.

What really surprises me is how often on forums some guy comes up with a gem like this, and how often attacks on character, (not the OS, but the person themselves), comes from some guy who thinks PC's are superior...... yet it's the mac crowd that are 'zealots'???

Whatever, both sides have idiots, Adventurepants, congratulations for being a perfect example of a typical PC idiot.

buy a mac.

Machinesworking wrote:

adventurepants_ wrote:mac users are the last people on earth that should be giving computer advice.

Just wanted to say your full of shit, arrogant, and an idiot.
YOU are defining yourself by the computer you use to at least the degree that the stereotype you have of people using macs are. Therefore you're a fucking hypocrite.

Nothing less interesting than a person who defines themselves by their supposed superior choices in clothes, cars, computers, wine, whatever, doesn't matter... if you think your shit smells like roses because you can debug Windows, and saved money on your laptop......... well bad news buddy, your breath still stinks.

What really surprises me is how often on forums some guy comes up with a gem like this, and how often attacks on character, (not the OS, but the person themselves), comes from some guy who thinks PC's are superior...... yet it's the mac crowd that are 'zealots'???

Whatever, both sides have idiots, Adventurepants, congratulations for being a perfect example of a typical PC idiot.

No thank you for demonstrating that some mac users are humourless and thin skinned about their lack of knowledge. you must have missed the part where i talked about apples 'superior build quality' and 'better, more modern OS', but you probably missed that in your rush to sneer at anyone with a different opinion. and in your little screed you made many more personal insults to me personally than i did to anyone.

on this board there are many many incorrect statements about pc computing made by mac users that dont really know anything about computing except that their personal choice is somehow better (same comment, reverse it for some pc users) . I like to offer a balanced view, with real world experience.

for the record ive fixed macs professionally since OS7, and Pcs since Dos 5. I dont have any real preferences, just the right tool for the job and the person.

Heh, yeah I already said the PM article was bullshit. They write for non-nerds. Me? I'm a nerd. You pointed out that the two computers being compared there were different. Well, the Inspiron and Macbook Pro are also very different!
Anyway, here is a list of the specs that are different to show you that these two computers can't be fairly compared:

Inspiron 1520: $1,394 US
Video: GMA X3100 (shared memory, 2.0 shader)
RAM: 3GB
HD: 320GB
Network: Intel Wireless-N Mini-card, 10/100 ethernet.
Warranty: 3 year In-Home service, phone.
Etc: 2.0 audio out, mini firewire port, fingerprint reader, tray CD drive, card reader, etc etc etc.

Macbook Pro: $2,348
Video: Geforce 8600M GT (256MB discrete, 4.0 shader,)
RAM: 2GB
HD: 200GB
Network: Airport Extreme
Warranty: 3 year limited, phone.
Etc: Magsafe power adaptor, audio/optical in/out ports, FW800, FW400, Expresscard34, Bluetooth, 10/100/1000 ethernet, slot loading CD drive, etc etc etc

So as you can see, the Inspiron and Macbok Pro are different machines. You can't compare them. The MBP has a bunch of extra crap that the Inspiron doesn't have, and vice-versa. The Inspiron is closer to the Macbook, and the XPS is closer to the Macbook Pro. Lo and behold, their prices are much closer too. Why, you ask? Because they have similar hardware!

Go down to your local computer store and check out laptops with similar configurations. You may find that Sony computers have a slightly higher price than Dell machines. Same with Lenovo, Toshiba, Acer, etc etc. They are all companies competing for business, so they will price their products accordingly. Now that Apple is using similar architecture to major PC manufacturers, they are on a level playing field. In order to win over the consumer, a computer company must offer things other companies do not, such as better warranties, faster shipping, different features, different build quality, more options, different extras... The list goes on and on!

PC nerds and Mac nerds are all mostly equal these days, my friend. Only our choice of operating system separates us!

Even though this is the ableton forum, I have to add the following to the discussion:

One of the all time best DAWs is only available on the MAC: DP.

If I was even remotely competent on a MAC I would get one just so I could use both Live and DP.

Alas, I've been using PCs for over 20 years and while I can keep my windows machine bug and spyware free (you DO have to be a competent PC tech to be a PC user who can keep their machine running) I can't find my ass from a hole in the ground in the OS X Finder for some reason.

If you are serious about building a high end recording studio quality system with incredible speed and very low latency, a PC ala Sweetwaters Creation Station with a PCI interface is the way to go.

For most home studio use, use what you like.

But whatever you do....always, always, always, always...spend as much freaking money as you can when you buy a new comp.

the_planet wrote: Inspiron 1520: $1,394 US
Video: GMA X3100 (shared memory, 2.0 shader)
RAM: 3GB
HD: 320GB
Network: Intel Wireless-N Mini-card, 10/100 ethernet.
Warranty: 3 year In-Home service, phone.
Etc: 2.0 audio out, mini firewire port, fingerprint reader, tray CD drive, card reader, etc etc etc.

Your point on comparisons is well put, but at the sight of a Dell quote I gotta jump in....

bro....from a fellow PC user, and a Consultant who has bought hundreds of dells, Inspirons are consumer level pieces of crap. Ok, thats kinda harsh, their build quality has improved over the years, but IMHO they don't compare to the build quality of the Mac. You get way more bang for the buck, so it is a 'better value', but you'd get a better comparison to the Macbook with the Thinkpad or Business Line Dell, which do still come out cheaper, but not to such an extreme.

But hey, none of this is breaking news, Mac users know they pay a premium for the brand, thats what happens when a company patents their hardware. Mac user get their nice GUI and a slightly better build quality and consistency, oh yeah, a 'few' less bugs in the OS. Plus the OS is more in sync with the software (vs the PCs transition to a 64bit OS) available.

If you do get a consumer level PC for audio work, make sure to uninstall almost everything and then google audio PC and perform all the tweeks you can.

my $.02

pabloaugustus wrote:Your point on comparisons is well put, but at the sight of a Dell quote I gotta jump in....
If you do get a consumer level PC for audio work, make sure to uninstall almost everything and then google audio PC and perform all the tweeks you can.

my $.02

Well, yeah, that's excatly what I was trying to point out. My argument was basically "You can't fairly compare a Macbook Pro with an Inspiron."

If you find a computer that has great specs but is slightly less expensive, be wary of quality. In the computer realm, price is generally a good indicator of quality. People don't understand that the reason that Macs appear to cost more than PCs is that they generally have better components, extra stuff, and superior build quality. I say that with conviction because it's true.

And if you're doing audio work, we all know that you need a pretty damn powerful machine to get stuff done. If you're playing live, a heavy plastic thing isn't going to be as good as a light metal machine. You get what you pay for. If you want to spend $1,500, go for it. If you want to spend $4,000, go for it. But don't expect to get $4,000 performance from a $1,500 machine. Hence, don't expect Macbook Pro performance from an Inspiron.

landrvr1 wrote:

adventurepants_ wrote:i

That's not to say that wacked out PC shit it happens a lot. PC bashers want you to believe that it happens all the time. Dunno.

The biggest problem these days is, as I'm sure you know, spyware, and thats where I disagree. Give an average n00b a PC, have them hook it up to their DSL. Within 5 minutes they will be inundated with spyware and their PC will be running at a snails pace. This is incredibly common, and I would hate to guess the statistic for percentage of PCs running at less than, say, 50% ideal performance because of spyware or other unintentionally installed software. Just think about the (non-nerd) people you know...my uncle...my girlfriend....my grandpa....half of my friends....all these people running bogged down consumer line PCs....blows my mind.

This a seriously big problem and I don't understand:

A) Why anybody without a technical background in PCs, or a support staff, or a highly paid consultant (like ME, yay!) would buy a PC.

B) Why Microsoft hasn't found a solution to A.

pabloaugustus wrote:

the_planet wrote: Inspiron 1520: $1,394 US
Video: GMA X3100 (shared memory, 2.0 shader)
RAM: 3GB
HD: 320GB
Network: Intel Wireless-N Mini-card, 10/100 ethernet.
Warranty: 3 year In-Home service, phone.
Etc: 2.0 audio out, mini firewire port, fingerprint reader, tray CD drive, card reader, etc etc etc.

Your point on comparisons is well put, but at the sight of a Dell quote I gotta jump in....

bro....from a fellow PC user, and a Consultant who has bought hundreds of dells, Inspirons are consumer level pieces of crap. Ok, thats kinda harsh, their build quality has improved over the years, but IMHO they don't compare to the build quality of the Mac. You get way more bang for the buck, so it is a 'better value', but you'd get a better comparison to the Macbook with the Thinkpad or Business Line Dell, which do still come out cheaper, but not to such an extreme.

But hey, none of this is breaking news, Mac users know they pay a premium for the brand, thats what happens when a company patents their hardware. Mac user get their nice GUI and a slightly better build quality and consistency, oh yeah, a 'few' less bugs in the OS. Plus the OS is more in sync with the software (vs the PCs transition to a 64bit OS) available.

If you do get a consumer level PC for audio work, make sure to uninstall almost everything and then google audio PC and perform all the tweeks you can.

my $.02

ive also bought and setup probably 50 inspiron laptops at this point. the latitudes are definately a much better build, and i agree they are more on par with the MPB in terms of build quality. but to be honest, Ive had less hardware failures with the inspirons than i have with Sony Vaios, and with the next day support its not even an issue. im on my third inspiron (upgraded not broken ) and i cant see why id pay the extra grand for the latitude when ive beaten the hell out of the inspirons and had one minor hardware failure. we've had much better treated Latitudes fail too. any on call tech will tell you that pretty much any brand of laptop will have at least one hardware failure during its working lifetime (pc and mac)

my experience with Dell has only been in the last 3 years, and Im well aware of the bad name they had in consumer laptops before that.

I think the MBP is a very sexy bit of kit, im just not sure how much money that sexiness is worth in itself.

the_planet wrote: Hence, don't expect Macbook Pro performance from an Inspiron.

Ahhhh...thanks for clarifying! I love it when I make redundant argument to posts that have already made my point.

the_planet wrote:

pabloaugustus wrote:Your point on comparisons is well put, but at the sight of a Dell quote I gotta jump in....
If you do get a consumer level PC for audio work, make sure to uninstall almost everything and then google audio PC and perform all the tweeks you can.

my $.02

Well, yeah, that's excatly what I was trying to point out. My argument was basically "You can't fairly compare a Macbook Pro with an Inspiron."

If you find a computer that has great specs but is slightly less expensive, be wary of quality. In the computer realm, price is generally a good indicator of quality. People don't understand that the reason that Macs appear to cost more than PCs is that they generally have better components, extra stuff, and superior build quality. I say that with conviction because it's true.

And if you're doing audio work, we all know that you need a pretty damn powerful machine to get stuff done. If you're playing live, a heavy plastic thing isn't going to be as good as a light metal machine. You get what you pay for. If you want to spend $1,500, go for it. If you want to spend $4,000, go for it. But don't expect to get $4,000 performance from a $1,500 machine. Hence, don't expect Macbook Pro performance from an Inspiron.

but is this actually true (performance, not build quality)? what benchmarks do we have to make any claims at all while we are at it. how about the Live stress test, i wonder how different pcs and macs compare with track count using the same interface and as much hardware the same as possible? i wonder how those two machines i listed above differ in Live using (bui the same interface and settings? maybe we can get Apple and Dell to send us all a tester?

adventurepants_ wrote: but to be honest, Ive had less hardware failures with the inspirons than i have with Sony Vaios, and with the next day support its not even an issue. .

Word....the Vaio is a cheap ass consumer line machine masquerading as a high end business laptop. Its definitely hit or miss finding a PC laptop to compare to the MPB, sometimes even within the same manufacturer's laptops. And some people like you have had great lucks with their inspirons. I'm rocking Lenovo, though it doesn't compare to the old IBM Thinkpad's, which are the only PC Laptop I could ever compare to th MBP for consistency in build quality. There are some smaller custom builders who have attractive offerings though I've never felt comfortable going there....though I'd love to hear if anybody has experience with quality off-brand or custom audio PC laptops.

adventurepants_ wrote: how about the Live stress test, i wonder how different pcs and macs compare with track count using the same interface and as much hardware the same as possible? i wonder how those two machines i listed above differ in Live using (bui the same interface and settings?

AhhhH....now we are getting somewhere!!




.....although I was enjoying the usual pointless banter.

adventurepants_ wrote: ive also bought and setup probably 50 inspiron laptops at this point. the latitudes are definately a much better build, and i agree they are more on par with the MPB in terms of build quality. ...

Welp, there you go. If it works for you, use it. What's the debate here?
You use Dell because you have a good track record with them and like the service. I use Apple because I love OSX and the various extra features make it a good value to me. See? We're all the same! We just have different preferences.

pabloaugustus wrote: Ahhhh...thanks for clarifying! I love it when I make redundant argument to posts that have already made my point.

Heh, yeah. Mac vs. PC is a silly debate because everyone argues the same points but in different ways.

pabloaugustus wrote:

landrvr1 wrote:

adventurepants_ wrote:i

That's not to say that wacked out PC shit it happens a lot. PC bashers want you to believe that it happens all the time. Dunno.

The biggest problem these days is, as I'm sure you know, spyware, and thats where I disagree. Give an average n00b a PC, have them hook it up to their DSL. Within 5 minutes they will be inundated with spyware and their PC will be running at a snails pace. This is incredibly common, and I would hate to guess the statistic for percentage of PCs running at less than, say, 50% ideal performance because of spyware or other unintentionally installed software. Just think about the (non-nerd) people you know...my uncle...my girlfriend....my grandpa....half of my friends....all these people running bogged down consumer line PCs....blows my mind.

This a seriously big problem and I don't understand:

A) Why anybody without a technical background in PCs, or a support staff, or a highly paid consultant (like ME, yay!) would buy a PC.

B) Why Microsoft hasn't found a solution to A.

if all my family and friends bought macs, i wouldnt get anywhere near the amount of free dinners and booze i get now to fix their shit!