shtreimel wrote:Tried to stay away, but like a car accident...
In previous posts, I mentioned that I work on an early psychosis team. Pharmacology, neuroscience and bio-psychiatry...we've got it all. And we know shit. We're so blinded by "science", "quantitative studies"...and our clients suffer, and suffer. Why? I have no doubt it's because we're living in an era where ""soul", "spirit" are relegated to new-agey (read: unscientific) corners. In other words, if you can't measure it, it ain't worth discussing (which is amusing, because we seem to hang onto that self construct called "romantic love". We live, kill and die for it...though it's nothing more than, what, random neurotransmitters firing dopamine...seretonin?).
Thank God (yup, I said it), there's other psychiatrists and neuroscientists who are humble enough to consider that there are things we'll never be able to measure with tools, tests, etc., and have no problem with human struggle in the form of ill souls, spirit, etc.
I have no problem with the concept of spirit, or even god, depending on what you
mean by that.
If a cancer patient (I'm a cancer researcher) feels that prayer helps them deal with their treatments, and provides them solace so they don't have a nervous breakdown when facing death, then so be it. I think that's as critically important as having ones family there to provide help in the rough times. Whether there is a physiological mechanism behind all of this (there surely is) is really beside the point; if it makes YOU feel better, then that's what counts.
But this isn't what I'm talking about, and it isn't what Dawkins' is talking about in his book. In fact, Dawkins' specifically allows for the Einsteinian god, which is what I just described.
The issue I have is when all of this starts to encroach on the nature of the literal physical reality of the world. Let's say you're taking cisplatin (a typical anti-cancer drug) to treat your ovarian cancer. Cisplatin works by damaging DNA and causing cells to die or stop doubling; the cancer cells are most vulnerable because they are the most rapidly doubling cells in the body (along with bone marrow and hair cells, which explains the common side effects of anemia, susceptibility to infection, and hair loss).
Now, your cisplatin works based on physical principles (I have my Ph.D. thesis on this I could share with anyone who would like more detail). This does not change. Now, if someone prays, that
may elicit specific physical changes in their body (no one is denying this), which could alter the efficacy of cisplatin, thereby altering the treatment outcomes.
In this sense, I understand the power of prayer; the feeling of peace it brings may elicit real, literal physical changes. Of course, randomized controlled trials tell us that, on average, praying does nothing to help overall survival (at least from open-heart surgery), but on the individual level, it may very well make a real, concrete difference.
But this provides not one scrap of evidence that Jesus was divine and born of a virgin, or that god can literally affect change in the physical world.
Let me ask you this: why does god hate amputees? (
http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/)
Seriously. Why has god NEVER (EVER) healed even a single amputee? Surely at least one amputee at some point in history has prayed to god to have their severed arm or leg back, and has deserved it (pious life, devotion to god, acceptance of Jesus as saviour, etc). Jesus is quite specific on the topic of prayer (I'm copying from the above linked site, which goes into FAR more detail, if you'd like):
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! - Matthew 7:7
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. - Matthew 17:20
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. - Matthew 21:21
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. - Mark 11:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. - John 14:12-14
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matthew 18:19
If prayer does work, it seems to work only in very specific cases where the REAL effect could be, in reality, a literal change in physiology induced by prayer. If prayer really were effective as a means of improving health, or even SLIGHTLY biasing your chances of improved health (and remember, Jesus is very clear that honest prayers WILL be answered), you would expect that at least ONE amputee would have been healed at some point in the last 2000 years.
This argument is, of course, incredibly facetious, but it drives home a very important point: there is no proof that, even if prayer actually works, that its effects are mediated through god-induced changes to the physical world. I would accept regrowth of limbs to be consistent with god's input, since it (apparently) cannot be explained in any other way; I have FAITH that limbs cannot regrow, because the quantity of data supporting this is massive.
