Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

[hereschenes]

Just thought I'd say that I enjoyed this cheeky rebuttal of Dawkins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis

You'll find it much more relevant if you've actually read TGD, or some of Dawkins' other works.

[Tone Deft]

Yes, I despise ANS's morals and am sick of the media mourning her. I know talking shit about people post-mortem is in poor taste but she's was an immoral person.

Anyway your two comments, coming on the heels of each other, are interesting, no?

I have no respect for ANS and couldn't care less about her health, wealth, her son, her TV show, her boobs, any of it. If that's a metric for my morality so be it, but I wouldn't be so judgmental to call someone immoral based on their view of ANS, that's pretty pious (but I imagine you're playing devil's advocate, you're a nice guy). Kind of a weak point on your behalf, IMO. I'm sure you could dig up more dirt in my posts, I can be a real ass sometimes.

If i was still a christian I would probably say that I hope she repented for her sinful life before she died and feel sorry for her that her son is in hell for committing suicide (he did off himself, right?) and feel bad that they're both in hell. Do you think the religious right celebrates her life, hell they probably hate her more than me, ya dig?

[Machinesworking]

Telling people you're an atheist makes them think you're a bad person with no morals.

Speaking of morals...

I was going to post this, and death is sad and all, but she was annoying as all fuck.

/harsh

Now I understand that not all atheists lack class, but you're the one stating the case that atheists have morals. You may wanna model what you preach.

I understand you're trying to make a point, but honestly, personal attacks are lame, whether directed at you, or you directing them at others.
None of us ever knew that woman, less than we know each other even, and she did feed any sort of moral indignation in the sense that she was drugged up all the time, let herself be filmed high as hell on anti deppressants and booze, posed in nudie magazines, married a guy obviously for the money, etc.
I really see no difference between tone deaf trashing on her behavior, and your reference to stoning gays in a thread about the holocaust, and subsequent confirming of your distaste for them. Personally I don't approve of either action on either of your parts, but I'm sure I have my own shortcomings etc.
Tea pot calling the kettle black IMO.

You avoided the fundamental statement he was making in this thread though, that atheists are constantly under attack for being atheists. Told they couldn't possibly have morals etc. You will definitely see a jewish president before an admitted atheist, Thomas Jefferson was more than likely one though.

[conny]

You are completely misinterpreting (purposely?) what I said. The PROPER CONTEXT of what I said was that we must define what we all mean by god first; a complete definition of god.

A complete definition of God?
Seriously?
That's out of scope for most living beings.

Me, not being confessing to Christianity per se, accepts that the concept of God etc is a question of belief.
By that, I address a state of mind where you GIVE YOUR SELF UP!
And that is why the scientific approach about Gods existance/non existance fails bluntly.
It is not about proof at all.

It more like the love towards your new born child.

// C

[Machinesworking]

And that is why the scientific approach about Gods existance/non existance fails bluntly.
It is not about proof at all.

It more like the love towards your new born child.

// C

Which is of course a state of being that makes total sense in either a universe with a intelligence (ie a god that created it) or without.
I don't think anybody can argue against total harmony with natural law. A love for a child is a natural law IMO, any parent who does not feel that is out of balance and psychologically, chemically, etc. WRONG!
Personally I find like i said earlier, that a reasonably rational, and morally striving religious person to me, I have more respect for than someone who does not know what they believe. To me the most dangerous person is an unthinking person, the people that believe or do not believe, but have not given it any thought..... those people are the worst to me, as bad as Hitler, or Stalin, or David Koresh and Jim Jones. They are the ones that give those people power.
I have far more respect for all who have contributed to this thread than those types. At least you are thinking about what you believe in.

[conny]

I have far more respect for all who have contributed to this thread than those types. At least you are thinking about what you believe in.

Agree.

And, NB, I do agree for the most with Dawkins like here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC9fB_oX ... ed&search=

My point though is that science and the "proof" of God is irrelevant.

// C

[hereschenes]

Thomas Jefferson was more than likely (an atheist) though.

Jefferson was more than likely a deist, not an atheist. Big difference. Deism is certainly not equivalent to Christianity, but it's also certainly not equivalent to atheism either.

[djadonis206]

what about some guy who just believes in t*t's - period

fuck this higher power crap-ola

gods cool, probably a nice guy with some serious skills but I'd sell him out real quick for a nice rack and some steak on any given day

just something to think about as we ponder the great question...

[Machinesworking]

what about some guy who just believes in t*t's - period

fuck this higher power crap-ola

Goes back to my whole point about it mattering more what you do right here right now, IMO, than what you say you do, and say you believe.

[went to the gypsy]

any sensitive and sentient human being with half a quart of intellect will agree with you. think Nietsche & W.Blake.

now, let's move on. this debate is 2000 year ignorant and 125 years borrrrring.

we have dodgeball now.

-wttg-

[went to the gypsy]

any sensitive and sentient human being with half a quart of intellect will agree with you. think Nietsche & W.Blake.

now, let's move on. this debate is 2000 years ignorant and 125 years borrrrring.

we have dodgeball now.

-wttg-

[BoimB son of BoB]

By that, I address a state of mind where you GIVE YOUR SELF UP!

yeah like in drugs and alcohol abuse?? people do see weird things crawling all over the place i've heard... iiiiiiiii... god punishment!

as for neurotransmitters, lol, i never claimed that the human brain or person wouldn't be able to counteract against hormonal imbalances by happy thinking, putting things in perspective etc... like taking a good long walk or doing sports... it is a fact that a person actually has a lot of control over his 'state of mind'... stress can lead to deprssion, as can losing a child for example... the brain responds to external responses. but drugs/medication/alcohol however DO have an effect on your state of mind because they disturb hormonal balances. there are many people that actually have (geneticly) been 'predestined' to suffer from hormone inbalances etc... and are more prone to depression or worse psychological conditions.

the brain responds to external triggers, or personal thinking. this clearly does not involve god, or nonphysical interventions...

i'm sorry shtreimel, but if i were you i'd talk to someone around you at work ,a profesor or something and ask him your opinion about how YOU see it...
my guess is you could be in for a surprise... i think if the guy is well trained, he will tell you something very similar as i stated.

as for the 'mysterious ways of god'. i think, if god has a hand in everything you see around you... i mean, why on earth would something so cruel and hearthshattering like the holocaust be allowed. what was god's intention with that, what lessons did he want you to learn from that... honestly, if this is god's doing... i would spit him in the face.

god works in mysterious ways. i think a lot of jewish people would get furious giving some sort of answer like that. sorry m8

i've heard the argument of free will etc. that we are responsible for oour own actions etc. ok, fine. but where does that lieve god then? would be a bit lame ey, all the drama, for what, for who's pleasure... for the Devine eating popcorn while watching 100 000 africans die by food shortage? while we have to kill literally billions of animals to keep this poplulation without hunger...

nice going god, what a sensitive and 'humane' way of living we are forced to do, thank you for your confidence in the godcreated animal that is man. conquering the world around him and destroying it while doing so... yeah, god must be very happy with his creation and system of survival and brutal slaughter.

it doesn'tmake sense now does it.

what a bullshit shtreimel, you are naive not ous.

[Machinesworking]

as for the 'mysterious ways of god'. i think, if god has a hand in everything you see around you... i mean, why on earth would something so cruel and hearthshattering like the holocaust be allowed. what was god's intention with that, what lessons did he want you to learn from that...

In private Hitler did use the excuse that he was "avenging Jesus". Once again conveniently forgetting Jesus was a jew.

Though this has always been an interesting point to me, if a person prays to god and the prayers were answered, it is seen as grace or divine intervention. Conversely if god does nothing, and things turn out horribly against the person praying, it is also seen as "gods will". This little question of grace, and the lack of consistency in which grace is meted out, is actually one of my major gripes with the religious. Why on earth would any rational, thinking person believe in divine intervention? especially considering this?
This inconsistency brings me back around to the belief that religion was, and is, a tool used by the ruling class to keep people in their place. Every good or bad thing that happens to you is because god wanted it that way, if you are blessed with good luck, it's divine providence, and if poverty and famine are your lot, then it's also god's will. You are being tested in your faith etc.
My only contention with the religious is this question of grace. I simply see it as the one thing in religious thinking in general that has no redeeming moral or ethical value whatsoever. Buddhism gets this right in my opinion, but the rest fail miserably.
I think of your friend the surgeon shtreimel, and while I understand that our egos are so fragile, and the work of a doctor is so impacting in every sense in the quality of life a patient has, and that reaching out to this divine parent figure for guidance is emotionally stabilizing for him, it still scares me that we cannot admit our own power and grace, that we search outside ourselves for that to a god that admittedly mets out grace in a seemingly random way.
I personally have been given a mental capacity that seems to be lacking in others. I can forgive myself for merely being human, and making mistakes, I realize I'm not a god like creature, and I can only try to do the best that I can.

You asked why atheists are angry, well conversely why are the religious so emotionally torn with pride, fear, guilt, and redemption? feelings of persecution, and a slave mentality?
In response to the question you asked. Atheists are angry because it's not a sin to be angry to an atheist. Plus, living in a world where 85% of the people believe in things like divine intervention and constantly attack your ethics as invalid, because you don't believe the unprovable story they tell of creation etc.........
Seriously this is how that reads to an atheist, "How can you know what is right and wrong without assigning a parental father like god figure to the universe?"
It just seems so insane to us that it probably does come off as anger, but it's more about frustration.
And once again, despite the occasional low brow antics in this thread, it has been fairly civil.

[ethios4]

Just bear in mind that you cant judge a religion's truth, or lack thereof, solely on its practitioners. Those misguided practitioners are also human, and fallible.
Most people seem to think that grace means they can pray to God, and because he's "on their side" he will give them what they want. Grace is actually God's mercy in that he could justly destroy us at any given moment, but instead his love and mercy stands in our place and we are spared. So really, every minute that we are here is a gift of God's grace. Kinda silly to pray for the traffic light to turn red in time when you put it in that perspective.

Christian hypocrisy is one of the most disgusting things on this planet, and it is everywhere. I'd bet that every single hater on this board bases their beliefs, at least in part, on Christian hypocrisy. JC tells us specifically to not be so concerned about the speck in our neighbors eye, but to attend to the log in our own. Yet most Christians want to project their own guilt outward onto whatever group reflects their own guilty conscience.

I really like Bill Hick's approach of challenging Christians to adhere to their own beliefs. He tells the joke of walking out of a comedy club after doing his act, and these two rednecks come up to him saying "We're Christians and we don't like what you said in there." Bill's reply? "Oh, well then forgive me." Boo-yaa!

[Machinesworking]

I really like Bill Hick's approach of challenging Christians to adhere to their own beliefs. He tells the joke of walking out of a comedy club after doing his act, and these two rednecks come up to him saying "We're Christians and we don't like what you said in there." Bill's reply? "Oh, well then forgive me." Boo-yaa!

Yeah, I didn't know about him as a kid when he was alive, but he was really funny!

Again, it goes back to my belief that it's a persons ethics that make them. Grace is almost NEVER used the way you describe it, which is too bad, (but kind of spooky IMO, like, "god could kick our ass! but since he doesn't it's like he's cool!"), most people use it to try to insinuate divine intervention into human affairs. As has been stated earlier, Jesus at least is quoted as saying that it works that way.