Ableton Forum

...missed it by that much...

Firstly, I am neither little, nor am I angry. Also, I have studied mixed martial arts since childhood, so I can handle my own with or without a firearm.

Secondly, I never believed we went to war in Iraq to protect Iraqi's. Who thinks that??

We are actually talking about two seperate issues here..one being firearm ownership in general and secondly, concealed carry. I won't address basic ownership because if you are of the opinion that people should not own firearms at all then I don't know what to tell you and don't care to waste my own time debating basic amendment rights. I think you could find more than a few New Orleans citizens who are damn glad they had guns to protect their families during Katrina.

Now, if you are in the dark on this issue of firearms ownership, let me shed some light. As I have stated previously, concealed carry laws have LOWERED crime in every state where it is law. The arguments raised against these laws are always the same. Critics tell us that we cannot allow just anybody to carry a gun.

Your position is this: "Arming everybody is just not the solution, If someone has a gun on them, the opportunity to escalate a situation into deadly violence is exacerbated." Am I correct in assuming this is your position?

Let's think about this. Since the criminals are already armed, these opponents of self defense are claiming that if the rest of us can pack a piece, we will also become criminals. Some people say that "Clothes make the man" but this takes that notion to a new extreme: "Guns make the criminal."

In my debates with gun control advocates such as yourselves, I have learned that many of you confuse self defense with vigilantism. You actually think that self defense is taking the law in our own hands. In other words, you think that self defense is illegitimate. This of course is not the case as our constitution allows one to defend one's self. You cannot just pull your firearm out whenever you feel like it, that is called brandishing and is illegal. There are clear laws about what constitues threat of deadly harm or distress. All permit holders are very familiar with these laws.

Concealed carry also covers other weapons such a knives,kubotans etc.. so with a permit one can carry a knife, kubotan, gun , whatever legal weapon's the law allows. You cannot have a criminlal record and must pass a training class in order to get a concealed permit, then your fingerprints are sent to the FBI- this process takes about 90 days. So not just "anyone" can carry or buy a gun. Almost any use that is allowed is solely as a last resort, when one fears that life is in danger, when escape or retreat are not options, and warnings are given and ignored. I can site you thousands of cases in which a concealed permit holder has saved their own or others lives in dangerous situations solely because they had a firearm. There are a multitude of reasons people carry. People who travel through high crime areas routinely, people who work in remote area's or late at night, people who carry large sums of cash such as jewelers, etc etc. Also, many women carry because they cannot defend themselves against a forceful rape or robbery, would you rather be raped and murdered or defend yourself and live?? Pretty simple if you ask me.

In case you were wondering, most cops are in favor of concealed laws as well. I have police friends that I shoot with at the range and they are all very pro-gun and pro-concealed carry, they wish more people would protect themselves instead of assuming they can get their in time to save them. Its called personal responsibility, something some of you on here don't seem to be fond of.

Flame all you want, I could care less. I have already agreed to disagree with most of you. If you are active in the electronic music business I am bound to run into you sooner or later and would be more than happy to discuss these issues face to face.

FireForEffect wrote: Secondly, I never believed we went to war in Iraq to protect Iraqi's. Who thinks that??

I thought you believed the Iraq invasion was because of the link between terrorists (OBL etc) and Sadam's regime.

I (wrongfully it seems ) assumed that you thought the US presense in Iraq would not only benefit the US but also protect the non-terrorist portion of the Iraqi population from the terrorists.

So are you saying that the US invasion was not even partly for the benefit of the non-terrorist Iraqis ???

noisetonepause wrote:'Immature half-man' is not what your mum was calling me last night.

Like I've stated before, I'm not a socialist. I don't want Big Brother. I don't want guns either. I don't see how those two things are at odds with one another.

What I do see is a tedious little wind-up merchant with his head up his arse.

paws, there is a link in the bottom left of these pages "stop watching this topic"

need to press it now and then to avoid getting drawn into these idiotic debates

FireForEffect wrote:If you are active in the electronic music business I am bound to run into you sooner or later and would be more than happy to discuss these issues face to face.

verbal brandishing

historically, if i'm not mistaken, our u.s. constitution allows us to bear arms so that
our government doesn't run amok out of control............................................... .......oh crap!

FireForEffect wrote:Firstly, I am neither little, nor am I angry. Also, I have studied mixed martial arts since childhood, so I can handle my own with or without a firearm.

pilcrowt wrote: verbal brandishing

It's cool, you stand tall here, put the kungfu away. It's not your fault you think like you do.

FireForEffect wrote:I won't address basic ownership because if you are of the opinion that people should not own firearms at all then I don't know what to tell you and don't care to waste my own time debating basic amendment rights.

I quit cigarettes, so I vote for cigarette tax hikes. I don't/won't own a gun. BB guns were fun when I was a kid, paintball is fun, but guns just don't interest me. Guns have a lot of power in a flick of a finger. Different opinions.

FireForEffect wrote:Your position is this: "Arming everybody is just not the solution, If someone has a gun on them, the opportunity to escalate a situation into deadly violence is exacerbated." Am I correct in assuming this is your position?

Late night occupations handling money in rough neighborhoods warrants good self defense. My example was the other extreme confrontation, day to day confrontation, so I asked if you've had a gun pulled on you or if you've pulled a gun on someone. That's a heavy situation, I had a gun pulled on me once, not cool. All I ever saw was the square end of the barrel.

Pulling a gun on an armed asshole... I dunno. I live in a rough neighborhood (the Mission in San Francisco, there have been several shootings on both ends of my block.) I know that in a physical confrontation I might ever get into I HAVE TO run and make lots of noise or hit first, hit fast and hit hard because the asshole is already pumped up and has probably been in a fight since the 1st grade. Pulling a gun in that situation... wow, At that point don't you have to assume that you're willing to wound and possibly kill a human? My bet is that the asshole also steps it up a notch, and likely he has less to lose than you do and has likely had a harder life.

Overall, putting a gun in ANY situation is a bad idea to me. Lots of power, flick of the finger. Different opinions.

No argument, just discussion. I've never seen anyone change their minds over a message board.

I guess the important question to ask gun advocates is this: ignoring the US today, if you could rid the US of all it's guns, excluding say, police and security guards and other 'officials', would you think it's a good idea?

This is the fundamental question that is what divides people ideologically.... discuss. (oooh I feel like I'm writing exam questions here )

D K wrote:historically, if i'm not mistaken, our u.s. constitution allows us to bear arms so that
our government doesn't run amok out of control............................................... .......oh crap!

well yeah exactly, how do you think you'd get on taking up arms against the Bush admin?

They'd just pull out the ultra sonic crowd dispersers and make you all crap yourselves

A thought occurs for those who so concerned with self defense (it really isn't much of an issue for me, since I live in a non-gun crazy country - Australia), how practical are stun-guns/tasers? Surely there's a weapon that can be used for self-defense that won't kill the other person.... or did the invention of the gun kind of kill the personal 'defence' evolutionary cycle?

forgie wrote: how practical are stun-guns/tasers? Surely there's a weapon that can be used for self-defense that won't kill the other person...

Dare I say it...........a stunning idea forgie

forge wrote:They'd just pull out the ultra sonic crowd dispersers and make you all crap yourselves

You're thinking of North Korea.

pilcrow wrote:

forge wrote:They'd just pull out the ultra sonic crowd dispersers and make you all crap yourselves

You're thinking of North Korea.

Yeah, rubber bullets are more US style....

....memories of footage from Seattle a few years ago come flooding back.....