Ableton Forum

hoffman2k wrote:

Crash wrote:

8O wrote:Again, according to this "logic" you should be directing your energy at Microsoft/Apple - they too "owe you everything they promised to deliver". But you know what they would do - ignore you completely. Right?

1. Windows and Leopard summed together cost less than a single copy of Live when I buy OEM versions that don't come with telephone support.

2. No. Email support is still given.

So they fixed every bug you reported and there are no more outstanding issues in XP, Vista and OSX? Well done Sir!

Nope. Vista is so crap, MS has given up on it. No more bug fixes for that turkey. Why is no one up in arms about this?

Crash wrote:

ewistrand wrote:A crack is circumventing a part of the program that's necessary to keep it running.

Did I write Copy-Protection with inbuild audio support somewhere? Ah, yes, I did. :twisted:

Maybe you didn't, but Steinberg just did- sort of. They bought Syncrosoft yesterday:

http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/ste ... y-450.html

ew

andydes wrote:

hoffman2k wrote:

Crash wrote: 1. Windows and Leopard summed together cost less than a single copy of Live when I buy OEM versions that don't come with telephone support.

2. No. Email support is still given.

So they fixed every bug you reported and there are no more outstanding issues in XP, Vista and OSX? Well done Sir!

Nope. Vista is so crap, MS has given up on it. No more bug fixes for that turkey. Why is no one up in arms about this?

They've OFFICIALLY given up on it. Timur is not addressing this because this is where his whole game starts to unravel.
What he is doing is the schoolyard equivalent of pulling a girls hair because you have a crush on her. Only, the girl is a boy in drag..

one technical question, besides all morality and ethics stuff:

what's the latest crack that works at least for a few days? sorry for not being up to date, haven't checked for weeks, is it 7.0.3?

this would mean using a crack you have to live with all the bugs we fixed in the last 9 or so versions... i guess you have to bear with those bugs until the next major version comes out and gets cracked. right?

how many fixes are in there since 7.0.3? i'm too lazy to count...

on the other hand: as a legal customer you get all those bugfixes (wohoo, again too lazy to count, but what was name name of the daw company that does update more often than we do?) and on top of that it might happen (sarcasm) that we even fix bugs you report personally!


robert and me in unisono "BUY LIVE!"

:)

dom

p.s.: the best about crack users is the look on their faces when i'm congratulating them after a gig ;-)

Robert Henke wrote:

Chris J wrote: So their choice is to not care about certain bug reports on already sold products and prioritize the work on the next version.

We need to sell new products to pay those fixing the bugs. True. But this does not mean we do not take care of the bugs. See above why.

If we only would fix bugs we could not sell enough to pay for those who fix them. Running a company is always a compromise. We try to do our best to satisfy both existing and new customers.

Cheers, Robert

Hang on, so what you're saying is that you need new sales to pay for the staff to fix the problems with the products you've already sold to people?

Why aren't you fixing the bugs with the products you've already sold with the money you got from selling those products?

Bottom line is that if a piece of software has a bug it is faulty and needs fixing. Software companies get away with not fixing bugs in a way that no other product manufacturer can and some take the piss. Not saying Ableton are one, but Live isn't cheap and when it doesn't work the way it should due to bugs people are going to get annoyed, especially when those bugs don't get fixed promptly.

Macrostructure wrote: I wouldn't use a cracked OS or DAW but I have had very few problems with the various try before you buy VSTs and VSTIs I have used over the years. If you know where to go and which crackers stuff to search for then it's generally ok

ew wrote:A crack is circumventing a part of the program that's necessary to keep it running. That's akin to removing the emission controls on your car. Will it run for a while? Yes. Will it eventually do damage to the whole? Yes.

Er..no. This is just incorrect.

ew wrote:What's wrong with Intakt? It's always worked here.

I bought it and found it buggy, crash prone and difficult to use.

ew wrote:And, we could say the same thing about your music; we'll just rip that off and not pay you for the time and effort you put into it. Deal?

I give my music, my software apps and skins etc. away free, no one ever paid me for the time and effort I put in. I don't think your analogy works.
Do you mean if someone releases my music as their own and makes a million? That parallel doesn't hold either.

Macrostructure wrote: Which all raises an interesting point - it's ok for developers to release half finished buggy shit, and no-one talks about 'goods not fit for sale', 'misrepresentation of goods' (sold as "working" or "useful" for example), or talks of sueing software houses for compensation for artist's lost time (due to irrecoverable crashes of improperly tested software for example), but everyone shits their pants about using cracked software. Sheeesh....come on guys...

ew wrote:Hold on here- you have the right to rip off their intellectual property, yet you expect to have yours respected? If that isn't the case, you have no basis for compensation, do you? And, if that is the case, isn't that hypocritical to say the least?

I think you need to read my statement again and not put words into my mouth. Software houses sometimes grumble about piracy and have threatened to sue people in the past but users do not have the power/money to sue software houses for producing crap products that in some cases cause material damage to consumers e.g large scale project data loss.

correction....

Macrostructure wrote: I wouldn't use a cracked OS or DAW but I have had very few problems with the various try before you buy VSTs and VSTIs I have used over the years. If you know where to go and which crackers stuff to search for then it's generally ok

ew wrote:A crack is circumventing a part of the program that's necessary to keep it running. That's akin to removing the emission controls on your car. Will it run for a while? Yes. Will it eventually do damage to the whole? Yes.

That depends how the software is written. I am sure there are as many variations of protection systems as there are programs. Your statement is too general to be useful and my experience is what it is, you simply cannot argue with first hand experience.

Macrostructure wrote:

Macrostructure wrote: I wouldn't use a cracked OS or DAW but I have had very few problems with the various try before you buy VSTs and VSTIs I have used over the years. If you know where to go and which crackers stuff to search for then it's generally ok

ew wrote:A crack is circumventing a part of the program that's necessary to keep it running. That's akin to removing the emission controls on your car. Will it run for a while? Yes. Will it eventually do damage to the whole? Yes.

Er..no. This is just incorrect.

Er- no, it's not.

ew wrote:What's wrong with Intakt? It's always worked here.

I bought it and found it buggy, crash prone and difficult to use.

At what version? I didn't get Intakt until the last release version and subsequent update- it's never crashed.

And difficult to use? What did you find difficult about it?

ew wrote:And, we could say the same thing about your music; we'll just rip that off and not pay you for the time and effort you put into it. Deal?

I give my music, my software apps and skins etc. away free, no one ever paid me for the time and effort I put in. I don't think your analogy works.
Do you mean if someone releases my music as their own and makes a million? That parallel doesn't hold either.

The analogy still fits. Let's say for a minute that you were selling your work. What's your answer then?

And, when it comes down to it, that shouldn't make any difference. As an artist, you want to have your rights respected as far as your creations go. Isn't it only right to extend the same courtesy to the people who make the tools you use?

Macrostructure wrote: Which all raises an interesting point - it's ok for developers to release half finished buggy shit, and no-one talks about 'goods not fit for sale', 'misrepresentation of goods' (sold as "working" or "useful" for example), or talks of sueing software houses for compensation for artist's lost time (due to irrecoverable crashes of improperly tested software for example), but everyone shits their pants about using cracked software. Sheeesh....come on guys...

ew wrote:Hold on here- you have the right to rip off their intellectual property, yet you expect to have yours respected? If that isn't the case, you have no basis for compensation, do you? And, if that is the case, isn't that hypocritical to say the least?

I think you need to read my statement again and not put words into my mouth. Software houses sometimes grumble about piracy and have threatened to sue people in the past but users do not have the power/money to sue software houses for producing crap products that in some cases cause material damage to consumers e.g large scale project data loss.

I can't think of a EULA that doesn't specifically exempt the vendor from any data loss, etc; you agree to that when you install the program. With the amount of variables present in the modern system, it'd be impossible to guarantee that.

And, in your post, you said that the artist should be compensated for lost time. If you aren't putting a monetary value on that (such as a commercial project), what grounds can you use for compensation? That's like sueing a store because you had to wait in line...

And finally:

Your statement is too general to be useful and my experience is what it is, you simply cannot argue with first hand experience.

And my experience says otherwise. I spend too many hours a day trying to fix problems on people's systems that are at least partially if not completely due to illegal software on their machines.

ew

ewistrand wrote:

Macrostructure wrote: Er..no. This is just incorrect.

Er- no, it's not.

See my second post

I bought it and found it buggy, crash prone and difficult to use.

At what version? I didn't get Intakt until the last release version and subsequent update- it's never crashed.
And difficult to use? What did you find difficult about it?

Too boring to talk about, I'm sorry

The analogy still fits. Let's say for a minute that you were selling your work. What's your answer then?
And, when it comes down to it, that shouldn't make any difference. As an artist, you want to have your rights respected as far as your creations go. Isn't it only right to extend the same courtesy to the people who make the tools you use?

If I was selling my work I would not be using try before you buy versions of plugs etc. That would be stupid, not to mention unfair to the developers. This was something I was going to allude to earlier - making money using tools that you have not paid for but the provider would like paying for is not good manners.
As for rights - that's all very well but if you can't afford the lawyers fees you can forget about your rights. Let's keep it real here.

I can't think of a EULA that doesn't specifically exempt the vendor from any data loss, etc; you agree to that when you install the program. With the amount of variables present in the modern system, it'd be impossible to guarantee that.

And, in your post, you said that the artist should be compensated for lost time. If you aren't putting a monetary value on that (such as a commercial project), what grounds can you use for compensation? That's like sueing a store because you had to wait in line...

No, I did not say that. Please go back and read again.

And finally:

Your statement is too general to be useful and my experience is what it is, you simply cannot argue with first hand experience.

And my experience says otherwise. I spend too many hours a day trying to fix problems on people's systems that are at least partially if not completely due to illegal software on their machines.

Unlucky man. Perhaps you should advise them to seek out better cracks?

Sorry guys I haven't read the whole thread but these are my thoughts:

People keep going on about buying a serial so the ableton guys can feed their children. This is a poor argument because competition always wins. How come Reaper, Linux and soon games do it for free?!

A whole generation of people are growing up thinking apps like music and DAWs are just files they dload off a computor, obviously free. If Reaper generated income through advertising or selling to business then they could afford good marketing and dominate with a free app. I'm not saying I know the answer to a sucessfull DAW product I'm just saying companies need to adjust how they generate income, we (the paying, legit users) will not subsidise losses to piracy forever.
Abelton is like insurance, a product nobody actually wants. People want to make music and be creative, Ableton just happens to allow them to realise some of that creativity. I mean I use alot of VSTs that are free and brilliant! so we know it doesn't need to cost anything and it is that which keeps piracy alive.

This thread sucks!

Look its a nice T-Shirt!

Moody wrote:This thread sucks!

true but it's a nice change from what people USED TO argue about.

tape head alignment?

tried it. problem is still the flutter. any other idea?