A Little pre-Christmas story....

[Tone Deft]

"People suck, and that's my contention. I can prove it on a scratch of paper with a pen. Give me a fucking Etch-a-sketch, I'll do it in three minutes. The proof, the fact, the factorum. I'll show my work, case closed. I'm tired of this back-slapping "aren't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are." - Bill Hicks (RIP)

raise a glass to a very wise man...

[thelike5]

then you go to a site that doesn't 'beep'. then the government finds that site and 'beeps' it, ultimately hackers beat the government within days or months, they always will.

Hefty fines will speak loader then beeps

really? so you've been fined for all your illegal mp3s? do you know anyone that has? you don't know anyone who's ever put an mp3 online for someone else to download?

You are such a fucking troll...

Didn't I just post a link to my favorite record store... right down the end of my street? Don't you think I shop there?

Why would I spend the last two hours posting ways for a governing body to find people who stael music if I did it myself?


You were just posting how it's wrong and you are suggesting that you illegally download?

You my friend are a putz.

[nebulae]

At least your stuff is being sold with credit to you. There is the next level of creativity theft where NO CREDIT is given, and the thieves not only steal the results of your creativity, but any chance to trade in reputation.

I think that's called "Sampling"

[nebulae]

5 pages worth, and no one has offered Rob a *hug*

Sorry to hear about this, pal. Hope you can raise your spirits back up soon. *hugs*

[Tone Deft]

Hefty fines will speak loader then beeps

really? so you've been fined for all your illegal mp3s? do you know anyone that has? you don't know anyone who's ever put an mp3 online for someone else to download?

You are such a fucking troll...

Didn't I just post a link to my favorite record store... right down the end of my street? Don't you think I shop there?

Why would I spend the last two hours posting ways for a governing body to find people who stael music if I did it myself?


You were just posting how it's wrong and you are suggesting that you illegally download?

You my friend are a putz.

wow. you're always mad at me, it hurts my feelings, I'm a sensitive guy ya know...

Hefty fines will speak loader then beeps

in a thread with details on how sites are going around the law makes no sense.

I'm simply exchanging ideas. the industry is changing radically and it's something we all care about. interesting stuff.

[Moody]

Hefty fines enforced by who? The World Police?

Send in NATO we have another Russian Software Pirate!

[forge]

I'm still amazed that even on this forum pirating tunes is considered acceptable.

so you never taped a CD or record when you were younger?

I'm always mindful that the record industry coined the term "pirate" - to everyone else it's sharing, and I don't think that could ever be a bad thing for music - most of the bands I'd heard of as a teenager I was able to listen to because friends taped them for me, then when I realised I loved it I'd buy the CD - that seems fair to me, why buy something you may not actually like? I certainly wouldn't want to rely on corporate radio stations or MTV to introduce me to music

Like I said before - I'd be really interested to see what would happen if people were to get into the habit of donating directly to the artist

People should stop fighting file sharing and realise that it is actually the key to the new industry where musicians will actually be able to survive because they don't rely on the middle man who is going down

for that kind of model it's kind of essential your tunes are out there being circulated

put it another way - does anyone here in all honesty realistically expect to get signed to some big powerful label who will make you famous and live happily ever after? No? so then what is the alternative? Keep whining for another 10 years about the evil pirates, or get on with your life and accept that it is actually an opportunity to throw off the shackles of an old unfair system and go it alone

BTW - I wonder who actually would use one of these dodgy sites that sell MP3s like this? I mean would you give your credit card number to one?

[Tone Deft]

I'm still amazed that even on this forum pirating tunes is considered acceptable.

so you never taped a CD or record when you were younger?

hell yeah. as a kid I'd go to the record shop on Friday after school, buy a shitload of vinyl, copy it to tape that night, return them on Saturday for 60% back, buy more vinyl, go home, copy that, go back again on Sunday and return all but the best ones. I still remember the look on the guy's face when I was wearing a PIL shirt while returning that same album ("fucking goddamn cheap ass kids are killing my business" is probably close to his thoughts.) then I'd get copies of the vinyl my friend of the stuff he got. I've got a job now and can afford CDs whenever I want.

of course I have some mp3s that people have given me. I'm not claiming to be a Puritan, I do things that I know are wrong, I just don't go around saying they're right and I don't do it all the time.

music is awesome, support the people that make it, sometimes they're pretty cool too.


it doesn't matter, I hope to soon loosen my morals and get a shitload of new music for free, I just can't bring myself to do it YET, but when I do, it'll be good.

[adventurepants_]

I'm still amazed that even on this forum pirating tunes is considered acceptable.

so you never taped a CD or record when you were younger?

I'm always mindful that the record industry coined the term "pirate" - to everyone else it's sharing, and I don't think that could ever be a bad thing for music - most of the bands I'd heard of as a teenager I was able to listen to because friends taped them for me, then when I realised I loved it I'd buy the CD - that seems fair to me, why buy something you may not actually like? I certainly wouldn't want to rely on corporate radio stations or MTV to introduce me to music

Like I said before - I'd be really interested to see what would happen if people were to get into the habit of donating directly to the artist

People should stop fighting file sharing and realise that it is actually the key to the new industry where musicians will actually be able to survive because they don't rely on the middle man

for that kind of model it's kind of essential your tunes are out there being circulated

put it another way - does anyone here in all honesty realistically expect to get signed to some big powerful label who will make you famous and live happily ever after? No? so then what is the alternative? Keep whining for another 10 years about the evil pirates, or get on with your life and accept that it is actually an opportunity to throw off the shackles of an old unfair system and go it alone

BTW - I wonder who actually would use one of these dodgy sites that sell MP3s like this? I mean would you give your credit card number to one?

i love these topics, always interesting to hear a range of views.

I think an important part of this debate is that many people into making music still have secret ambitions of main stream success, but they want to keep that indie control over their art, and their sound.

the problem is that non-mainstream indie/electronic download music is yet to have a single major continuing success (in top 40 terms of the 70s/80s). The type of mainstream success that people crave can only be achieved by record labels spending enormous amounts of cash on promotion. Those days are pretty much dead unless youre making the most mainstream pop or urban music.

These days its all about finding your micro-niche and reaching your micromarket. I think making the music available for free (or at least non CD quality versions of, but better than 128k), and making the live experience more valued are the keys here, and value adding to your music with merchandise. ie T shirts, and Robert Henke Action figures.

"But Mom, i want the Action Henke with the sidechain attachment!"

It would be great if digital music wasnt freely distributable, but it is, so the genie will never go back in the bottle.

I still buy lots of physical CDs every month because to me compressed music isnt worth any money anyway, its a sonic sketch of the real deal, not actually the real deal. Also because i like feeling that im contributing to artists i like making art.

/phew what a raving looney!

[forge]

I'm still amazed that even on this forum pirating tunes is considered acceptable.

so you never taped a CD or record when you were younger?

hell yeah. as a kid I'd go to the record shop on Friday after school, buy a shitload of vinyl, copy it to tape that night, return them on Saturday for 60% back, buy more vinyl, go home, copy that, go back again on Sunday and return all but the best ones. I still remember the look on the guy's face when I was wearing a PIL shirt while returning that same album ("fucking goddamn cheap ass kids are killing my business" is probably close to his thoughts.) then I'd get copies of the vinyl my friend of the stuff he got. I've got a job now and can afford CDs whenever I want.

of course I have some mp3s that people have given me. I'm not claiming to be a Puritan, I do things that I know are wrong, I just don't go around saying they're right and I don't do it all the time.

music is awesome, support the people that make it, sometimes they're pretty cool too.


it doesn't matter, I hope to soon loosen my morals and get a shitload of new music for free, I just can't bring myself to do it YET, but when I do, it'll be good.

but this is where I think you're still seeing it in the wrong way - the whole sharing thing is really no different to what you did with the vinyl

and what I'm talking about is DIRECTLY supporting the artist by donating directly on their website

I mean I'll probably try and get some online itunes label or something if I ever finish any of these tracks, I guess it'd be silly not to, I'm just saying I think we need to just accept the way things are now and find ways to make it work

the whole radiohead thing I think was a watershed - a lot of people might argue that they were already big, but what it demonstrated was that if people really like the artists they will pay willingly even when they don't have to

so the challenge for an unknown is to get to the point where people know who the hell you are and respect you enough to do that. Don't forget Radiohead were Indie unknowns once, it took them time to get that well known

I'm sure that it's still possible for people to get to that level now - I think the main thing is to just keep going and give the name a chance to get recognized - that's all radiohead did really - even with all their big label support, had they not exploited that and kept going then no one would know who they are now

I think if you're a musician and you want to get your name out there, just do it regardless, just don't expect to give up the day job overnight

[/28c]

[adventurepants_]

so you never taped a CD or record when you were younger?

hell yeah. as a kid I'd go to the record shop on Friday after school, buy a shitload of vinyl, copy it to tape that night, return them on Saturday for 60% back, buy more vinyl, go home, copy that, go back again on Sunday and return all but the best ones. I still remember the look on the guy's face when I was wearing a PIL shirt while returning that same album ("fucking goddamn cheap ass kids are killing my business" is probably close to his thoughts.) then I'd get copies of the vinyl my friend of the stuff he got. I've got a job now and can afford CDs whenever I want.

of course I have some mp3s that people have given me. I'm not claiming to be a Puritan, I do things that I know are wrong, I just don't go around saying they're right and I don't do it all the time.

music is awesome, support the people that make it, sometimes they're pretty cool too.


it doesn't matter, I hope to soon loosen my morals and get a shitload of new music for free, I just can't bring myself to do it YET, but when I do, it'll be good.

I'm sure that it's still possible for people to get to that level now - I think the main thing is to just keep going and give the name a chance to get recognized - that's all radiohead did really - even with all their big label support, had they not exploited that and kept going then no one would know who they are now

this is the 64 million dollar question. by the time Radiohead released their web album, they would have had literally millions and millions of dollars spent promoting them for over 10 years. Ive not seen one single act get this name recognition that wasnt first promoted by a major label. As far as I know, it simply hasnt happened.

yet!

[forge]

the problem is that non-mainstream indie/electronic download music is yet to have a single major continuing success (in top 40 terms of the 70s/80s). The type of mainstream success that people crave can only be achieved by record labels spending enormous amounts of cash on promotion. Those days are pretty much dead unless youre making the most mainstream pop or urban music.

Ah but this assumption is where I think people get it wrong! It's actually totally untrue!

EVERY SINGLE SUCCESS in music started of as a non-mainstream "indie" act - even the Beatles

the problem is we judge successful musicians from a position of hindsight - where they are already successful

but some of the biggest names in music history spent 10 very hard years as total nobodies slogging their guts out before they got anywhere - but they kept their name and kept going until the name got out and caught on

my point is I think it's still possible for someone to do that if they are in for the long haul and not expecting overnight success

but lets face it, in any other business would you bank on overnight success?

[forge]

yet!

[Tone Deft]

but this is where I think you're still seeing it in the wrong way - the whole sharing thing is really no different to what you did with the vinyl

oh, I know. it's a pretty sure bet that anyone who's into music has 'illegal' mp3s, we love music, we'll get it anyway we can. I'm also sure most of us on the forum are 'that friend' people have who's too into music and we're the ones people want to share music with.

so the challenge for an unknown is to get to the point where people know who the hell you are and respect you enough to do that. Don't forget Radiohead were Indie unknowns once, it took them time to get that well known

true. "he likes that band sooo much, he OWNS all the CDs!!"

I think we need to just accept the way things are now and find ways to make it work

exactly. and the smart ones will figure it out ahead of time and make the money. we all want the artist to come out on top however you want to measure that.



btw ever have some shit brag to you about how many mp3s they own? yeah shithead, how many CDs do you own? go to any concerts? can you name track 5 on album blah blah blah? they're #4 on the list of people I want to hit with a lead pipe. (cue the movie High Fidelity.)

[forge]

I'm sure that it's still possible for people to get to that level now - I think the main thing is to just keep going and give the name a chance to get recognized - that's all radiohead did really - even with all their big label support, had they not exploited that and kept going then no one would know who they are now

this is the 64 million dollar question. by the time Radiohead released their web album, they would have had literally millions and millions of dollars spent promoting them for over 10 years. Ive not seen one single act get this name recognition that wasnt first promoted by a major label. As far as I know, it simply hasnt happened.

yet!

BTW - don't forget also - any of the bands who got signed by majors already had a following, even if only local, that they generated themselves

A&R people for the major labels would just not return calls or bother to check any band out at all if they didn't already have a following - it was one of the prerequisites for getting A&R interest in the "good ole days"

I'm not saying it's still possible to be a mega star without playing live as well, but then I'm not sure that really ever was the case for many

btw ever have some shit brag to you about how many mp3s they own? yeah shithead, how many CDs do you own? go to any concerts? can you name track 5 on album blah blah blah? they're #4 on the list of people I want to hit with a lead pipe. (cue the movie High Fidelity.)

oh yeah - but I think those people were always around too

and dont forget, people are paying more than ever for concerts now - so in the past you had to tour to promote an album, now it's just the other way round