Ableton Forum

Tone Deft wrote:

JJarvis wrote:The problem is that these new features are already available in other sequencers.

yes, and so Ableton is closing the feature gap with the other DAWs, and there are features that other DAWs don't have. wait for one of the others to come up with a Session View equivalent, then the waters will get very muddy. except Live now runs max/msp/jitter natively, which will be IMPOSSIBLE for other DAWs to catch up to unless C74 allows that to happen, which I doubt. some other DAW could scoop up Reaktor, that would be interesting.

I still don't see what's bad about getting new features every year with Live. you also seem to be saying that other DAWs are stagnant in their development and that's somehow good.

find what you like and use it. I won't use more than one DAW, it spreads my learning too thin.

Sorry I'm not trying to upset people who swear by Live. If it works for you I don't argue you that it doesn't. I'm now using Logic along with a few plugins I've made in Max. That works for me just fine and I know that there are also many people who have their complaints about Logic. It is all subjective anyway. I still think Live is awesome for live audio and midi sequencing. However, I'm finding less use for it the more I get into configuring logic environment and developing programs in Max. Thats my own thing though.

Some good points. Let's see what price MfL will come in at, given the latest pricing on updates and retail pricing, I imagine it will be a 500 dollar add on.
Max is a powerful tool, and has more interest in the Ableton Live community than elsewhere, but there is always Reaktor and Tassman available and Max is a bit of a headfuck for a lot of people, many MfL users are going to rely on a minority of boffins to produce the tools and then download/buy them.

I still think Ableton, session view exclusive or not, are taking advantage of their loyal customers goodwill a bit. There could be a 20% discount for early upgrade adopters, and new retail purchases which would make the product more realistically priced and not seem so outrageous. And educational edu discounts could have been allowed for a limited period at least, giving loyal users a chance to take advantage and the volume of sales would surely have offset the discount costs and more so.

JJarvis wrote:Sorry I'm not trying to upset people who swear by Live. If it works for you I don't argue you that it doesn't. I'm now using Logic along with a few plugins I've made in Max. That works for me just fine and I know that there are also many people who have their complaints about Logic. It is all subjective anyway. I still think Live is awesome for live audio and midi sequencing. However, I'm finding less use for it the more I get into configuring logic environment and developing programs in Max. Thats my own thing though.

sounds like you have a nice work flow. nobody's upset, I read some stuff and commented. it doesn't help that there's a LOT of whining going on (I'm not referring to you at all) about Live's pricing and what Live 8 is really worth.

it's very subjective. there's one thing I can't stand and that's people insisting that everyone else use what they have. when someone says that you know they don't know what they're talking about. each DAW has its niche audience. Live is for talented people, the rest is for retards and posers. (joking of course.)

Tone Deft wrote: Live is for amateurs and posers, the rest are for serious producers and musicians.

edited for truth. live is a toy, and should be priced accordingly...

Tone Deft wrote:

skipkent wrote:$159 to buy Operator
$129 for Analog
$129 for Electric
$129 for Tension

NO discounts of any sort for current users because, obviously, only current users can use these instruments.

Would ANYONE here pay that sort of cash for any of these instruments? Has anyone?

Honest question.

already did.

Fair enough, but I doubt you bought all of them or even more than one. If you did, I salute your love of the product!

It would be more cost effective to wait for the next release and buy the whole kit as an upgrade, which is fine. But suppose the add on synths were priced at $39 and $49? Good Heavens, that would be insane! They'd make less money! Only they'd very likely sell more.

Clearly they're trying to discourage 'picking and choosing', and want us vested Live users to go 'all or nothing'. That's a strategy, to be sure. I don't think it's a very good strategy or a very profitable one, but that's just my opinion.

My only real gripe with Ableton's pricing is that it seems to be based on bleeding loyal users more than it is based on attracting new ones. I don't blame them for tweaking the prices of add ons and upgrades in such a way as to try and maximize profits. That's what the retail game is all about and I'm all for it. I honestly think they're doing themselves a dis-service with the choices they've made.

They should always be looking for ways to get users, new and old, to get excited about clicking the 'add to basket' and 'checkout' buttons. Now that I've purchased the downloadable upgrade, I'm done. Much as I'd love to support Ableton, there's very little available in their 'shop' that I can't find elsewhere in a cheaper, more flexible, multi-DAW-compatible format.

Operator for $160? I don't think so! I'll get ImpOscar or Zebra or whatever the synth-du-jour may happen to be long before I'd get that for that kind of money.

Sampler I can understand, as that is nicely woven into Live, but even that is priced so high as to make me weigh the alternatives and what I already have VERY carefully before purchasing.

A Rhodes plugin for $130? A string synth for $130? To me those prices say, 'wink wink - just buy the full version next time, eh?'. Okay, fine. Whatever. I now, as one of the members of your potential purchasing audience, have NO FURTHER reason or incentive to do any more shopping of any sort on your site until the next full version release. I'll check for freebies, and maybe order a t-shirt, but that's it. When upgrade time comes around, maybe I'll finally shell out for the extras, and maybe I won't. I haven't yet. In my case, I bought another sampler and a more fully featured 'drum machine' for same or less than the price of their proprietary add ons elsewhere. The more time goes by, however loyal I am to the core product, the less likely it is that I will either purchase any or all of the add ons, OR buy the whole kaboodle.

If I was an Ableton shareholder, I'd want to know why they're actively discouraging further sales from active customers.

I say lower the price of everything. Get more people clicking 'BUY' more often and feeling more excited about doing so. Reduce piracy by lowering the price of entry and REWARDING buy-in once it happens. If you try to make a killing on each and every sale, your customers feel it and respond accordingly (by deliberating instead of buying, by not buying or by buying a cheaper or better similar product elsewhere). Your reputation as a high-end 'boutique' purchase works both ways. On the plus side, you'll get a small base of users who are fervently supportive and defensive of your product and everything related to it (like Macs and some Mac users), which is great, but on the down side, that reputation also can encourage (or at least not discourage) piracy and causes some potential buyers to 'tune you out' as an option over time.

skipkent wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:

skipkent wrote:$159 to buy Operator
$129 for Analog
$129 for Electric
$129 for Tension

NO discounts of any sort for current users because, obviously, only current users can use these instruments.

Would ANYONE here pay that sort of cash for any of these instruments? Has anyone?

Honest question.

already did.

Fair enough, but I doubt you bought all of them or even more than one. If you did, I salute your love of the product!

It would be more cost effective to wait for the next release and buy the whole kit as an upgrade, which is fine. But suppose the add on synths were priced at $39 and $49? Good Heavens, that would be insane! They'd make less money! Only they'd very likely sell more.

Clearly they're trying to discourage 'picking and choosing', and want us vested Live users to go 'all or nothing'. That's a strategy, to be sure. I don't think it's a very good strategy or a very profitable one, but that's just my opinion.

My only real gripe with Ableton's pricing is that it seems to be based on bleeding loyal users more than it is based on attracting new ones. I don't blame them for tweaking the prices of add ons and upgrades in such a way as to try and maximize profits. That's what the retail game is all about and I'm all for it. I honestly think they're doing themselves a dis-service with the choices they've made.

They should always be looking for ways to get users, new and old, to get excited about clicking the 'add to basket' and 'checkout' buttons. Now that I've purchased the downloadable upgrade, I'm done. Much as I'd love to support Ableton, there's very little available in their 'shop' that I can't find elsewhere in a cheaper, more flexible, multi-DAW-compatible format.

Operator for $160? I don't think so! I'll get ImpOscar or Zebra or whatever the synth-du-jour may happen to be long before I'd get that for that kind of money.

Sampler I can understand, as that is nicely woven into Live, but even that is priced so high as to make me weigh the alternatives and what I already have VERY carefully before purchasing.

A Rhodes plugin for $130? A string synth for $130? To me those prices say, 'wink wink - just buy the full version next time, eh?'. Okay, fine. Whatever. I now, as one of the members of your potential purchasing audience, have NO FURTHER reason or incentive to do any more shopping of any sort on your site until the next full version release. I'll check for freebies, and maybe order a t-shirt, but that's it. When upgrade time comes around, maybe I'll finally shell out for the extras, and maybe I won't. I haven't yet. In my case, I bought another sampler and a more fully featured 'drum machine' for same or less than the price of their proprietary add ons elsewhere. The more time goes by, however loyal I am to the core product, the less likely it is that I will either purchase any or all of the add ons, OR buy the whole kaboodle.

If I was an Ableton shareholder, I'd want to know why they're actively discouraging further sales from active customers.

I say lower the price of everything. Get more people clicking 'BUY' more often and feeling more excited about doing so. Reduce piracy by lowering the price of entry and REWARDING buy-in once it happens. If you try to make a killing on each and every sale, your customers feel it and respond accordingly (by deliberating instead of buying, by not buying or by buying a cheaper or better similar product elsewhere). Your reputation as a high-end 'boutique' purchase works both ways. On the plus side, you'll get a small base of users who are fervently supportive and defensive of your product and everything related to it (like Macs and some Mac users), which is great, but on the down side, that reputation also can encourage (or at least not discourage) piracy and causes some potential buyers to 'tune you out' as an option over time.

TL; DR

you asked a question to prove a point, you were wrong and you continue in denial. you need therapy man.

I bought all of them, stfu, gtfo. goddamn this place got whiny with the L8 release.

Looked at some tracks I've done on Live 7. Some of them crap, one of them good. Software was the same on all of them except for Sylenth, bought at a discount and worth every penny. The other major difference was that the one good track started out as a solid idea rather than just noodling. Workflow didn't really make a difference, I would have been able to produce the same crap tracks and good track in any host.

So? So I won't be upgrading now. Liberating feeling. Don't need the new features to improve my music, no edu upgrade sucks and overall upgrade price too expensive in my opinion.

If Live 9 looks good, I'll upgrade to Live 8 just before 9 is released and therefore qualify for free upgrade, saving money (it will make 7 to 9 the same cost as 7 to 8...)

tl;dr Ableton have lost my cash. All of the geniuses on her saying "don't like the price? don't upgrade" were right. If you wanna upgrade, that's cool too.

dazzer wrote: If Live 9 looks good, I'll upgrade to Live 8 just before 9 is released and therefore qualify for free upgrade, saving money (it will make 7 to 9 the same cost as 7 to 8...)

Sorry but I think that only works for new users or lite upgrades. Your point is good though.

IMO the basic upgrade is overpriced. The suite stuff doesn't appeal to me... and it seems to be priced accordingly. Having bought Sampler and EIC separately years back stung pretty bad when the Live 7 suite came out, but then it bit them back when I realized I needed nothing in the upgrade, and didn't. This time round it may be the same story.

As others have said, reduce the upgrade price and get more people doing it.

fragchamp wrote:

dazzer wrote: If Live 9 looks good, I'll upgrade to Live 8 just before 9 is released and therefore qualify for free upgrade, saving money (it will make 7 to 9 the same cost as 7 to 8...)

Sorry but I think that only works for new users or lite upgrades. Your point is good though.

I'm running a full live7 license, and I was offered live8 suite for 'free' if i upgraded to live7 suite. Dazzer is right, there was a window of time whereby upgrading to/or buying outright a full live7/suite license would bring with it a live8/suite license too. If memory serves, they did it exactly the same from 6 to 7.

Maybe they'll change that policy when more early-adopters start wising up to the fact they're really just beta testers paying exorbitant rates for the privilege.

Tone Deft wrote: I won't use more than one DAW, it spreads my learning too thin.

+1 on the time management thing. I am really wrestling with this upgrade TD. Not because of the cost so much, but as whether to go straight 8 or sweet. Forget the price issue man. If the Abes charged $10.00 to upgrade to suite there would still be some bitchin' to contend with. It's always been this way and always will be, let alone with the economy as it is.

The real question for me involves time and practicality. Am I going to further blow my mind to the outermost reaches of it's ADD encrusted skull? I am having a helluva time getting my head wrapped around all I've got going now. What's going to happen if I wake up with 10 new instruments in my DAW? The shock alone could kill me.

I'm already suffering from sleep deprivation, nervous irritation and now I've developed a rash. So you see, this is a SERIOUS issue and may just result in an Ableton personal mental anguish case. My psychiatrist has advised me to file a Live 8 law suite, er I mean suit. I wonder if the Abes would be willing to settle out of court for a boxed suite 8 upgrade?



Sweet or Straight 8, either way it's a TOUGH call. Some would even say that in my case, it's a down right "challenging" decision to have to make.

This is like an annual exercise on this forum. People complain about features, Ableton adds features and charges for their work, then the CEOs come out and complain about Ableton's business model. Never fails.

Ableton is really over priced. I think in this credit crunch period, affected people like us cant able to afford it. Not half of the price but it must be reduce 30% percent of recent price.

Just to get real straight about this. I think they can charge what they want to for the software, it is a free market, but I also think it was kind of asking a lot out of people to raise the price of the basic upgrade in a recession. In my case, the Suite has not gone up in price since last time they offered it to me, but the basic download (no box) has become expensive.
My price for download upgrades.
4-5 $119
5-6 $119
6-7 $119

7-8 $189... but you get a coupon for $20-30! Still leaves it at a substantial price increase during a global economic meltdown.

It's their right, they probably spent a lot of time on the vocoder etc. but to not expect people to whine is asking a bit much. This thread always appears,along with people whining about not getting it free, and there's always a contingent that does the whole STFU! routine etc.

Different subject entirely, but I think I'm gonna have to jump off the yearly upgrade bandwagon. If there's one legit complaint about Ableton I could throw out there it's that other DAW manufacturers tend to wait at least 18 months between upgrades, Live has gone from 3 to 8 in the same period of time that Logic has gone from 6 to 8, and Digital Performer has gone from 4 to 6. The cost of Keeping up with Live is more than the others.

well yes. everything needs to be about half the price.

Machinesworking wrote: Different subject entirely, but I think I'm gonna have to jump off the yearly upgrade bandwagon. If there's one legit complaint about Ableton I could throw out there it's that other DAW manufacturers tend to wait at least 18 months between upgrades, Live has gone from 3 to 8 in the same period of time that Logic has gone from 6 to 8, and Digital Performer has gone from 4 to 6. The cost of Keeping up with Live is more than the others.

Has the diffrence in quality gone up faster as well? Or do you think even though they have done fewer upgrades, they have acheived the same level/rate of progression?