Ableton Forum

very interesting. some of us just worry about putting money aside for the next midi controller. your deal is a whole 'nother set of economics. best of luck!

teachers and musicians being underpaid is something that always pisses me off.

the_planet wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:

the_planet wrote:If I want pro results, I'll hire a pro.
Spending a buck on mastering is chump change compared to how long it will take me to master my own stuff.

how much do you typically make on a track? if you know a track won't sell as well do you factor that in?

Yup. This one is 3 tracks, and he's doing it for $350 mix/master which is an AWESOME deal. Normally it would be around $700 for 3 tracks mix/master. He's helping me out because he's a close friend and he has some spare time between projects right now.
After pressing 100 CDs and printing 100 cardboard sleeves, artwork, and the price of mix/master, it will cost us around $600 total (not to mention all the time we spent recording and arranging in our studio space). We are going to give away 25 CDs free, and sell the rest for $3. So that leaves us with a net loss of around $400. We are also going to hopefully sell them on our website through Tunecore.

It's more of a promotional tool right now, and it's going to help us get into other clubs who require an actual demo... So we're OK spending the money.

I'm not having a go at you personally here because I do understand the 'speculate to accumulate' approach andwhile I am very sceptical about it being a succesful approach, I hope it works out for you.

But I do wonder if the whole industry is being propped up by people taking this route.

Everyone in the process here is making money, the ME, The graphic artists, the printer, the CD duplication house...everyone that is....except you.

Everyoine has to make a living but sometimes you can go to these middle man sites and the whole website is plugged into to different services for which you have to pay to get your shit released on the off chance that you might make some cash yourself.

You can pay them for mastering, you can pay them to do your artwork, you can pay them for EAN codes, you can pay them to get your shit to the stores, you can pay them to market for you, you can pay them to produce a physical CD and THEN they still want a one off fee per track or a % of your sales.

I see that and i wonder what exactly the industry has turned into...

It seems to me a lot of this is preying on peoples dreams of stardom and they;ve simpoy found a new way, an internet digital way, of fleecing the starry eyed. Everyone's getting paid except the artist.

Once again not directed at anyone here and certainly not T who provides a good service at a good price and is honest and up front about what it is you get.

UKRuss wrote: I'm not having a go at you personally here because I do understand the 'speculate to accumulate' approach andwhile I am very sceptical about it being a succesful approach, I hope it works out for you.

But I do wonder if the whole industry is being propped up by people taking this route.

Everyone in the process here is making money, the ME, The graphic artists, the printer, the CD duplication house...everyone that is....except you.

Everyoine has to make a living but sometimes you can go to these middle man sites and the whole website is plugged into to different services for which you have to pay to get your shit released on the off chance that you might make some cash yourself.

You can pay them for mastering, you can pay them to do your artwork, you can pay them for EAN codes, you can pay them to get your shit to the stores, you can pay them to market for you, you can pay them to produce a physical CD and THEN they still want a one off fee per track or a % of your sales.

I see that and i wonder what exactly the industry has turned into...

It seems to me a lot of this is preying on peoples dreams of stardom and they;ve simpoy found a new way, an internet digital way, of fleecing the starry eyed. Everyone's getting paid except the artist.

Once again not directed at anyone here and certainly not T who provides a good service at a good price and is honest and up front about what it is you get.

You're absolutely right!

Musicians really get the shaft. It's hard to sell music, especially when it's available for free and because there are so many artists to choose from. The industry doesn't currently support the sale of music because their business model is 70 years old. I truly believe that in 10 years, music will be free. Hell, these days only something like 10% of records make a profit at all. The money is in live performances, licensing, and pretty much everything except record sales. The exception here are Radiohead, NIN, and others who have the strength to offer their music for free, even when they could make a nice lump of cash selling records. However, they still sell limited editions to their "true" fans.

In the major label world, you're totally boned unless you are extremely careful with your finances, and have a good lawyer. http://www.negativland.com/albini.html This is an article Steve Albini wrote. It's dated, but much of the information is still accurate as it pertains to the majors.

If the sky falls, hell freezes over, the planets align, and SOMEHOW our band gets picked up by a label, I'm going sign a record contract as soon as possible, even if it gives most of the control of our recordings to the company. I figure that since the recordings will soon be worthless (as music becomes easier and easier to obtain), it's more to our benefit to enjoy the free promotion and legitimacy the label provides. They can keep the recordings, I just want my ticket sales. So I guess that's why I have no qualms dumping my cash into something that will lose money in the short-term. Hell, I (barely) remember signing $65 bar tabs. My cost out of pocket is only twice that.

And about the mastering/mixing, it would definitely be nice to learn how to do it! Personally, I'd rather just stick to writing music. Not to say that self-engineering artists suck, it's just that I suck. It is more economical for me to play music!

Some people look at it as an investment though, no different thann investing in new gear, or even lessons of some sort. Yeah at first you're paying out of pocket, but the goal is to eventually get that money back. I think it's no different than any other passion people have. How much do people into a particular sport pay to get to a certain level?

It's unfortunate that at first it might cost you money to get into the game, but the fact is a band these days needs a professional demo to get gigs, record label attention, build a fan base, etc. But I guess this is a conversation for another thread.

evon wrote:What about the theory of perfecting the mix thus negating the requirement of an ME? Or at most very little of his services.

I would say that should always be the case anyway, regardless of if the artist or someone else is doing the mastering. You'd be dumb to leave mixdown issues for someone else (or yourself) to correct later.

Mixing typically costs more than mastering because it involves a lot more work lining up and processing multitrack audio compared to a stereo .wav/.aiff or 4 or 5 stem submixes. The planet - how much of an expert at mastering is your mix engineer (or vice versa). This determines how much of a bargain that $350 is.

Even top studios such as Sony charge only charge around 100 dollars per track for mastering typically (on a 4 minute track at least), unless you are getting a guy with grammy awards and a huge client list of major label stars with multi platinum albums. Then 5-10 grand is more the going rate depending on number of tracks/album length.

Tarekith is correct about getting the mix right. One thing that real top end pro mastering does and some demo mastering doesn't is they will tell the artist to correct the mix with EQ/compression suggestions before accepting the work.

leedsquietman wrote:Mixing typically costs more than mastering because it involves a lot more work lining up and processing multitrack audio compared to a stereo .wav/.aiff or 4 or 5 stem submixes. The planet - how much of an expert at mastering is your mix engineer (or vice versa). This determines how much of a bargain that $350 is.

He's currently a student at the Clive Davis Department of Recorded Music at NYU. He's pretty busy with school, but does engineering part time to help afford expensive-ass New York. He's been in a number of bands in three cities, engineered pretty much everything they have done including some minor video work... All kinds of stuff. I'm pretty confident in his abilities.

I don`t doubt his abilities, but it`s rare that someone actually specializes in both mixing AND mastering, which is why most audio professionals, even gurus like Bob Katz, stick to one discipline, or eventually if they are doing more things, narrow it down to one specialty. With his resume, your audio guy should be in demand and have the nous to provide a very good result, so your $350 should hopefully be a good investment. Bob Katz has done mixing in his past but solely concentrates on mastering now.

I did Music Tech at University and worked in studios for six years in the mid-late 90s and everyone has their niche. I suspect your man is mostly a mixer, but with enough experience to do a reasonable stab at mastering, in a way that Tarekith and others work. No disrespect intended.

I don't think it's all that uncommon for mastering guys to sometimes do mixdowns, or even location recording (something Bob Katz's is known for too). Many of the bigger ME's like Roger Nichols were previously go to mixers, a lot of the same skills apply in both disciplines.

Tarekith wrote:I don't think it's all that uncommon for mastering guys to sometimes do mixdowns, or even location recording (something Bob Katz's is known for too). Many of the bigger ME's like Roger Nichols were previously go to mixers, a lot of the same skills apply in both disciplines.

well, leedsquiteman is correct, at least if we talk top level... it is really a bit like fomula1 driving, if you want to play on top, you don't start learning to become a car mechanic first and then drive rallies and then go into the formula1 you start with an extreme young age and start with go-cart races and then formula 3000 and so on up to formula1, and you DO THAT! all your life. same applies to top MEs or Mix engineers, exceptions apply of course, rare exceptions...

that is another reason why i personally find those "all in one people" somehow funny, even i do some of it myself, but would never dare to call myself a real good ME, even i have way more skills and experience then dozens of others i know, but i have an utmost respect for the dedicated top players.

Tone Deft wrote:evon - sorry for being mean to you in the past, I have a problem dealing with dumb people. I have no patience for your kind of fuckwittery.

I'd hire an engineer if I was unsatisfied with a mastering job I've done. someday I might send a tune to Tarekith just to see how he'd do it. surely I'd learn a few tricks. I have zero ambition to ever sell a track I just like having fun with Live.

Yes Mr. Deft..you just had to take the bait..just couldn't resist. Your description of me seems to be the description of a typical musician. In fact you summed it up so intelectually, I am begining to think you are on the wrong forum. I just imagine how well you would do on a "writer's forum". You could master some of your post and actually sell some.

cut it out evon. I was only replying in kind.

Can you guys both take this elsewhere, PM's or something? Would be nice to have one thread that didn't dissolve into this kind of thing.

I recently won a remix contest and the producer wanted to include my mix for a compilation. He asked for the premaster and if I compare my "mastered" version to the one included in the compilation, my version pretty much sucked balls! I am now a true believer that to have someone else with a fresh set of ears master your tracks is the best thing to do.

Tarekith, you will hear from me in the future. I would like to try out your service once I have everything ready.

I don't have a professional master my songs. I let my homeboy Trevor do it on his laptop:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/1947831/


Well, I try to when his mom isn't on Facebook.