israel attacks gaza bound aid flotilla.

[3dot...]

no .. this is how it's usually done..
it was known they would try and breach anyways..
they probably didn't want to give them the daytime photo-ops
the consequences were horrific

... I think in the war for our own morals we lose again and again...

those kids (18-21 mostly) in the army know no better..
our fear driven government fails us again.... feels like all sorts of bad...
our country is insane..
I'm ashamed to be called an Israeli.. and I pray(literally) for the future of all the good and moral people
we have become what we were taught to despise... a hateful people who oppress others..
we have waged war on the weak.. women and children..
and this state has failed almost every moral test handed to us
we do not respect the 'other'.. .even though not long ago we were the universal 'other'

[3dot...]

The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the Jewish heart...

They will find the world opinion in their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service.

TRUE WORDS OF WISDOM...BY AN ENLIGHTENED MAN

[smutek]

3dot... I don't think you should be ashamed to be an Israeli just the same as I am not ashamed to be an American. The actions of our governments are not our own.

Not to go all poetic or zen or whatever, but the first thing we have to do is to be the change we want to see, and from what you've written it seems you are already well on your way to this. You have nothing to be ashamed of as far as I am concerned.

[3dot...]

the bible tells that the Jews were chosen to deliver god's ABSOLUTE-MORAL-CODE ("the Torah")
because they got released from slavery(Egypt) "as a folk"...
and they could perceive freedom truely..
I do not remember once in history when we were the oppressors instead of the oppressed..
and so.. in the ultimate godly test.. fail

[3dot...]

3dot... I don't think you should be ashamed to be an Israeli just the same as I am not ashamed to be an American. The actions of our governments are not our own.

Not to go all poetic or zen or whatever, but the first thing we have to do is to be the change we want to see, and from what you've written it seems you are already well on your way to this. You have nothing to be ashamed of as far as I am concerned.

I'm not ashamed at my heritage.. which is Jewish.. not Israeli..
Israel is allowed to be corrupted for the sake of "democracy".. the moral rules are absolute and cannot be corrupted..
Gandhi got it straight

[caaflex]

@caaflex

Oh, and for the record I actually concur with quite a bit of what you've been saying regarding the 'intentions' of this 'mission of peace'.

But because you're such a cunt I'm just going to have to lie and say you're completely full of shit.

i'd rather be a cunt with a point then a person that foolishly believes every spin the media puts in their face.

I'm under no illusion that Israels opponents are angels, however, Israels military and security forces have a shameful history of brutality, aggression, and a lack of regard for innocent life that is well documented and stretches back decades.

What about all the innocent Israeli lives that have been murdered? What about the missiles that have been constantly shot into Israeli urban areas?

It's not easy to be Israel, and when you are constantly under the gun and being attacked like they have been by pretty much everyone surrounding you then you will develop a reputation over time. I don't agree nor approve of everything Israel has done in the past, but we aren't debating history here. My comments are directly about this incident at hand. Don't for a moment think that the people behind this terrible tragedy didn't think that Israel's reputation would help them get what they wanted.

I'm not trying to come off as a dick to anyone, and not trying to be offensive, but I really want people to understand more about this than the headlines that say "Israel Attacks Aid Flotilla 9 Dead". Too many people in the world these days think reading the news is browsing headlines and regurgitating what they saw. Modern day media is a tool to those in power, both good and bad, and more people need to try and see through the spins to try and find what truth there may be.

/rant

[3dot...]

^^^ caaflex
I agree with everything you say .. it's all a strategy...
but it's strategy that puts a mirror to our own values..
in the morning of the tragedy they said 20 dead.. then it was 15... eventually it turned out to be 9..
they did this to create a heated outrage before even knowing what transpired there..
in Turkey..Greece..(out "friendly" neighbours.. everything was already laid out for the outrage...they planned for something bad to happen..
but..
no piece of land is worth being led into situations where the very essence of our lives is corrupted.

[smutek]

I'm under no illusion that Israels opponents are angels, however, Israels military and security forces have a shameful history of brutality, aggression, and a lack of regard for innocent life that is well documented and stretches back decades.

What about all the innocent Israeli lives that have been murdered? What about the missiles that have been constantly shot into Israeli urban areas?

It's not easy to be Israel, and when you are constantly under the gun and being attacked like they have been by pretty much everyone surrounding you then you will develop a reputation over time. I don't agree nor approve of everything Israel has done in the past, but we aren't debating history here. My comments are directly about this incident at hand. Don't for a moment think that the people behind this terrible tragedy didn't think that Israel's reputation would help them get what they wanted.

I'm not trying to come off as a dick to anyone, and not trying to be offensive, but I really want people to understand more about this than the headlines that say "Israel Attacks Aid Flotilla 9 Dead". Too many people in the world these days think reading the news is browsing headlines and regurgitating what they saw. Modern day media is a tool to those in power, both good and bad, and more people need to try and see through the spins to try and find what truth there may be.

/rant

Okay, I really really can not spend any more time on this forum tonight, so if I respond within the next 12 hours please kick me in the ass.

• First, my heart goes out to any innocent loss of life, regardless of which side they happen to be on or whether or not they are even on a side.
• Second, you state that we are not debating history here but the incidents at hand are a direct result of and reaction to that same history.
• Third, I suspect it is far easier to be an Israeli than it is to be a Palestinian.
• Fourth, regarding innocent lives, you seem pretty well versed, why not compare casualties. I could provide a number of examples and figures, verifiable, but I'll refrain in the interest of avoiding sprawl, and because I really have to go.
• Fifth, completely agree regarding the media and I want people to understand as well, on both sides.
• Sixth, you don't come off as a dick.
• Seventh, good night.

[3dot...]

http://www.examiner.com/x-7095-NY-Israe ... nst-Israel

[caaflex]

^^^ caaflex
I agree with everything you say .. it's all a strategy...
but it's strategy that puts a mirror to our own values..
in the morning of the tragedy they said 20 dead.. then it was 15... eventually it turned out to be 9..
they did this to create a heated outrage before even knowing what transpired there..
in Turkey..Greece..(out "friendly" neighbours.. everything was already laid out for the outrage...they planned for something bad to happen..
but..
no piece of land is worth being led into situations where the very essence of our lives is corrupted.

agreed. it's not a very simple or clear cut situation and there is far too many tragic and depressing events as a result.

I'm under no illusion that Israels opponents are angels, however, Israels military and security forces have a shameful history of brutality, aggression, and a lack of regard for innocent life that is well documented and stretches back decades.

What about all the innocent Israeli lives that have been murdered? What about the missiles that have been constantly shot into Israeli urban areas?

It's not easy to be Israel, and when you are constantly under the gun and being attacked like they have been by pretty much everyone surrounding you then you will develop a reputation over time. I don't agree nor approve of everything Israel has done in the past, but we aren't debating history here. My comments are directly about this incident at hand. Don't for a moment think that the people behind this terrible tragedy didn't think that Israel's reputation would help them get what they wanted.

I'm not trying to come off as a dick to anyone, and not trying to be offensive, but I really want people to understand more about this than the headlines that say "Israel Attacks Aid Flotilla 9 Dead". Too many people in the world these days think reading the news is browsing headlines and regurgitating what they saw. Modern day media is a tool to those in power, both good and bad, and more people need to try and see through the spins to try and find what truth there may be.

/rant

Okay, I really really can not spend any more time on this forum tonight, so if I respond within the next 12 hours please kick me in the ass.

• First, my heart goes out to any innocent loss of life, regardless of which side they happen to be on or whether or not they are even on a side.
• Second, you state that we are not debating history here but the incidents at hand are a direct result of and reaction to that same history.
• Third, I suspect it is far easier to be an Israeli than it is to be a Palestinian.
• Fourth, regarding innocent lives, you seem pretty well versed, why not compare casualties. I could provide a number of examples and figures, verifiable, but I'll refrain in the interest of avoiding sprawl, and because I really have to go.
• Fifth, completely agree regarding the media and I want people to understand as well, on both sides.
• Sixth, you don't come off as a dick.
• Seventh, good night.

I guess my point about history was more so that I won't let what's happened in the past affect my judgement as to this specific incident. There is no arguing that this was a direct result of what has happened in the past.

I like your seventh point, time to go watch some baseball and fall asleep. Good night sir.

[LoopStationZebra]

i'd rather be a cunt with a point then a person that foolishly believes every spin the media puts in their face.

[edit] Point to anything I've written that makes you think I'd believe anything at face value.

And, er, what media are you referring to exactly? Fox News? Where Israel has never made one mistake and can do no wrong? Any number of Left leaning outlets that paint Hamas as little more than a bunch of peace loving beatniks who place daisies in the gun barrels of IDF soldiers and are massacred for their trouble? Please, enlighten us all on which spin you are referring to....

[dum]

The nine victims

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back

[LoopStationZebra]

Was the Gaza Flotilla Linked to Terrorists?
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassif ... ists-.html

Although I.H.H. is reportedly banned by the Israeli government, it is not on any U.S. anti-terrorist sanctions list.

Bruguière (who retired from the French judiciary three years ago and now helps run a joint U.S.–European Union project to track terrorist finances) says in 1998 he collaborated with Turkish authorities on a search of I.H.H. premises in Turkey during which weapons were discovered.

[zooli]

I'm ashamed to be called an Israeli..

I don't think you should be ashamed. As Israeli who served in the army and support in any way for peace in Israel i think that any other country in this world would do (and did) the same if anyone would try to step in their territory. It was a wise strategy and a planned "Ambush" and unfortunately the Terror-Leaders got what they wanted, again. from there the media eat it and serve it all over the world.

Maybe in the day there will be no more Oil on this planet things may change, i still Hope.

'Drop Beats, Not Bombs'

Peace!

[djsynchro]

That was written by Mahatma Ghandi in 1938. The full text can be found here.

Thanks for that link!