Ableton Forum

Questions:
1. Does this impact VSTi automation? For example, will the timing of automation of FM8 still be delay compensated after bouncing? I would think it's OK here, since we're only really dealing with MIDI and controlling device parameters at this point.
2. Is this only an issue with 3rd party AUDIO EFFECTS?

fx23 wrote: So usually users stick with the shitty offset or don't use VSTs. the more tracks and plugs, the more this is likely to
happen. do ya get it?

like i said before, i must be doing something wrong because i've never experienced any degradation due to automation delay.... weird.
maybe i'm subconsciously adjusting for it as i go

jbone1313:

yup this concerns VSTs, not VSTI automs afaik. Vsti midi sequence and automations should not have pbs, hoever
there is still a pb of out of sync possible related to audio buffers with other parts like mixer.
ie if VSTI and audio card buffers are high, automating the mixer (pan sends levels ect) will bounce out of sync.
just make tests and see if it's drastic for you are were are the limits.

@MacMurphy. you can certainly subconsciously adapt. Ie you reced a first autmation. it shifts sligtly out of grid. you rec a new automation,by hear you will rec it in sync, relative to first offset, but in fact it's not. so you won't notice it unless you change the plugin chain. globally the process is not visible with many low latency vsts and simple non changing chains.
so this can be 'naturally' compensated on first and nexts rec if you work in linear progressive way, animating one after the other and not drasticly changing chains over time, mostly if you work in arrange with low latency vsts. but if you work in session, and have to draw the modulations,you will quick see rythmic fx curves get out of grid sync, and at some point the grid becomes useless and audio messed in very bad ways.

if you want a test that proves the impact on rythmic thing i provided one in the other thread:
http://rapidshare.com/files/443477011/P ... roject.rar

i see. the fact i work 95% in arrangement view explains it then.

thanks for the link to the pdc test, i'll check it out.

fx23 - you are kicking much ass, thank you.

pb? pbs?

please do add a reference to this in the Tips N Tricks sticky. I'd make one but you're on it.

macmurphy wrote:

fx23 wrote: So usually users stick with the shitty offset or don't use VSTs. the more tracks and plugs, the more this is likely to
happen. do ya get it?

like i said before, i must be doing something wrong because i've never experienced any degradation due to automation delay.... weird.
maybe i'm subconsciously adjusting for it as i go

we all use Live in different ways. worldwide forum, big audience. imagine you have a big fat synth sound because effect A and B are hitting right on the attack of a note. add power hungry effect C and now A and B aren't on the attack. or do a whole track and add some Mastering tools, and meh,


so PT and Reaper fixed this, what others? I'm pretty tired, sorry if that's been answered.

Tone Deft wrote:fx23 - you are kicking much ass, thank you.

pb? pbs?

please do add a reference to this in the Tips N Tricks sticky. I'd make one but you're on it.

macmurphy wrote:

fx23 wrote: So usually users stick with the shitty offset or don't use VSTs. the more tracks and plugs, the more this is likely to
happen. do ya get it?

like i said before, i must be doing something wrong because i've never experienced any degradation due to automation delay.... weird.
maybe i'm subconsciously adjusting for it as i go

we all use Live in different ways. worldwide forum, big audience. imagine you have a big fat synth sound because effect A and B are hitting right on the attack of a note. add power hungry effect C and now A and B aren't on the attack. or do a whole track and add some Mastering tools, and meh,


so PT and Reaper fixed this, what others? I'm pretty tired, sorry if that's been answered.

pretty much all major DAW's do this now, infact I think they all do, Cubendo, Logic, PT, Reaper, Sonar. JUst waiting for Ableton, I actually emailed them the other week asking if it would be a feature in version 9 or an update to version 8. They're lack of a response tells me it wont be fixed anytime soon.

jtdj wrote:
Most of your responses on this thread have been utter shite, ur music production quality has suffered since u switched to live? ur stuck on live because of the workflow? what aload of shit man, there are professional and charting productions that are made using Ableton every week. Some of the biggest chart hits of the past 2 years have been made using Ableton, a growing number of signed and professional producers use Ableton as their no1 DAW. If you cant make good quality tracks its not Ableton's fault, its ur lack of mixing knowledge and skill, you can do most things on any DAW, one DAW doesnt sound better than the other, its how you mix your tracks.

i ve more mixing knowledge in the small tow than you ever will have in total. guys like you dont even get that a program has problems because you dont have any reference..
And regarding your big producer gossip and big hits done in ableton-..name some please.. because thats all propaganda.. ableton is not at home in pro studios..and as it looks never will be

the program sounded shit for the biggest part of its existence, and all the bugs and problems over the years..
midi sucked up to L6.. so its just 3 years this program can be used as daw at all.. after 7 years building up from the intial product.. we had midi and reasonable sound quality..but still no sync and no comfort and midi still inferior to what an ataro was able to do.. groove quantize only in L8 for example.. 25 years after that was a standard feature in midi workstations...
allways theese arteficially slowed down development politics... always theese halfbaked implementations...
That
reduced my fun in the studio and therfore my production quality.. theese days i work liek ableton has intended it..
quick and dirty.. everythong else is to much pain with the program.. and because its somehow prohibitetd to acxcess your older session files..ther is no growth in longterm production.. before i worked wikth life i often git back to 1 year old sequences.. with live we can export such snippets just simnce one year.. you still cant open multiple arrange vesrions of the same song or even two differnt siongs at once.. or ex/import in omf format...
nothimg..as daw ableton life is inferio by design.. and that you can make one resonable song with it dont turns it in a longterm studio dominating and controling daw.. It leads to open ends and halfproduced tracks..

Ableton life is a trap when you use it as daw..its a stage toy..and since it started to like to crash and prohebit session wirk with others..it might get a trap for stage work too

somehiow even kills the live business .. you get less and less space on stage because they expect you to write emails on stage now... some are even surprised when you ask for a monitor.. all theese fake liveacts really ruin the situation as much for the liveact biz as all the priate mp´3s kill the release biz..
the revenge of the fanboys.. make the sun stay low than even dwarfs get big shadows.. cockroaches taking over the house...
And at the center of al this developments, at least profiting from all that..
Ableton..

Is no good...and thats the main flaw of the program..
some good ideas cant eliminate the permanent drawbacks out of the bad company philosophy..


i recomend everybody to dont waste money on ableton products before L9... we will see if they have become any better or if the just will sell us the features we got allready again in a working or better operatable fashion.. like complete grouptracks with name bars..and unbugged groove design, the new warpmaker tactics cleaned up and debugged..share aso.

and some new things that are again implemented halfbaked so that the wish for the next upgrade emerges 3 days after the release of L9.. and many bugs that surrive the anual pubic betatesting of cause
and of cause all old drawbacks still there..like bad syncing aso..
so ableton as usual..

or if we will see something that delivers what it promisses in a well developed and designed fashion..with more love for the details than the graphic layout...
and finaly adresses some of the old problems they was brushing in the corners since a decade now...

but in the end..why should they change? the fanboy userbase gives the milk..and you get this milk with shiny fanboy appealing features.. the convolution sound shredder reverb with a twist for example..
and some bloated automation bla... maybe even a halfbaked try to fix the sinc..

one cant really expect more of them..they are in it for the money... not for a secret best daw of the world competition that would only be rewarded with bankrupcy ..because the best die first.. see opcode...
so al companys that want to stay in biz have to deliver bad quality..thats the way modern comopanys roll..
seconnd class and faulty by design to keep the consumers attached and in the money transfer cycle...

in ideal they should install a timer that makes the program crash after one year but deliver good quality algos from the start instead..

so you get a fully working product on an anual base instead haveing to fight with halfbaked shit all the time and pay the upgrade fee anyway because you hope for a cure for the misery..
i gueess that will be the future one day when they cant pretend to be unableton anymore...

3phase wrote:



i ve more mixing knowledge in the small tow than you ever will have in total. guys like you dont even get that a program has problems because you dont have any reference..

I just listened to your tracks 'Der Klang Der Familie', "Rota" & "Bongers", no live instruments, no vocal recordings at all, very poor percussion programming and hit choice. Have you even ever recorded with a vocalist or a band? If thats where your "more mixing knowledge" has got you then you can keep it mate.

jtdj wrote:

3phase wrote:



i ve more mixing knowledge in the small tow than you ever will have in total. guys like you dont even get that a program has problems because you dont have any reference..

I just listened to your tracks 'Der Klang Der Familie', "Rota" & "Bongers", no live instruments, no vocal recordings at all, very poor percussion programming and hit choice. Have you even ever recorded with a vocalist or a band? If thats where your "more mixing knowledge" has got you then you can keep it mate.

i produced many records and mixed many bands before techno even exsisted.. and i am very good with vocal sound..
better than most actually.. and good in production with singers.. however the technoworld dont gives the oportunity to show that..and i dont work with dickheads so i cant show you how real guys do the job..-.
i tell you..there are many nice tricks to make vocals glow in the dark

3phase wrote:

jtdj wrote:

3phase wrote:



i ve more mixing knowledge in the small tow than you ever will have in total. guys like you dont even get that a program has problems because you dont have any reference..

I just listened to your tracks 'Der Klang Der Familie', "Rota" & "Bongers", no live instruments, no vocal recordings at all, very poor percussion programming and hit choice. Have you even ever recorded with a vocalist or a band? If thats where your "more mixing knowledge" has got you then you can keep it mate.

i produced many records and mixed many bands before techno even exsisted.. and i am very good with vocal sound..
better than most actually.. and good in production with singers.. however the technoworld dont gives the oportunity to show that..and i dont work with dickheads so i cant show you how real guys do the job..-.
i tell you..there are many nice tricks to make vocals glow in the dark

ur full of shit mate. ur 'electronica' pieces sounded like my 12 year old niece arsing about on a sunday. dont act like the expert on here if you dont have quality tracks to back it up.

jtdj wrote:
ur full of shit mate. ur 'electronica' pieces sounded like my 12 year old niece arsing about on a sunday. dont act like the expert on here if you dont have quality tracks to back it up.

so you have a quality track out there? show me little blown up..please..

link?

Tone Deft wrote:

macmurphy wrote:

fx23 wrote: So usually users stick with the shitty offset or don't use VSTs. the more tracks and plugs, the more this is likely to
happen. do ya get it?

like i said before, i must be doing something wrong because i've never experienced any degradation due to automation delay.... weird.
maybe i'm subconsciously adjusting for it as i go

we all use Live in different ways. worldwide forum, big audience. imagine you have a big fat synth sound because effect A and B are hitting right on the attack of a note. add power hungry effect C and now A and B aren't on the attack. or do a whole track and add some Mastering tools, and meh,


so PT and Reaper fixed this, what others? I'm pretty tired, sorry if that's been answered.

yep, i get the whole concept. i just haven't experienced it.

3phase wrote:
link?

that's a bit rich. how about a link from you?

Unlike you i dont claim to be an expert, i believe were always learning, no one is the finished article. But I dont like people like you saying they have more talent in their little toe when you havent heard any of my productions!

here is my latest track: http://www.filefreak.com/files/771601_l ... %20(2).mp3


3phase's tracks: http://myspace.com/3phase1

ah yes, i remember that song jtdj - it's on my ipod great tune, great production.

jtdj wrote:Unlike you i dont claim to be an expert, i believe were always learning, no one is the finished article. But I dont like people like you saying they have more talent in their little toe when you havent heard any of my productions!

here is my latest track: http://www.filefreak.com/files/771601_l ... %20(2).mp3

oh my god..bavarian folklore style nerdcore with dubstep alike aplikations...
why you dont let the random generator do the arramgement for you?
however i ve to admit that it is impressiv to put so much hysteria in a track while standing so much on one place and even having country flavor all over it in the same moment. you see the cows flying thru the air soemhow..

and mix is clean but hurts my ears in its coldness..but there are worse ones out there.. but i see that learning is such in issue for you

however.
You dont need to be a mix expert to crititze the slow development of the program. you just need to be part of the production audiotechnology game for more than 10 years.. actually 20 or even 30 is better than you know the whole story of sequencer and daw development first hand by experiance.. and are actually able to see that the last 10 years havent brought anything new really..just keeping the underdeveloped status quo...

i havent claimed to be an expert, that was you..but having done sequenced work before the c64 has hit the road and going from there over c64..to atari to mac and actually thru more than 30 years.. inklusive having worked with allmost any kind of audio hardware in that time incl. allmost any drummachine and hard or software sequencer...I guess i became an expert.. life is not especially funky or well developed... L1 was a good start..but from than its rather sad way.. L8 is at a state L5 should have been... and the real version number for such an development state is a 3 or 4

at least when you compare it with logic.. problems with latency compensation = logic 3 or 4