Transpose from Am to A

[stringtapper]

all respect but it worries me that you're making a web site to teach people. the web used to be a pretty good place to learn until that kind of site started popping up.

This was my point as well. It's commendable to want to help others and spread knowledge and I'm really all for it. But when people start posting "tutorials" on things that they themselves have only a half-baked understanding of then the result is we get a lot of half-baked tutorials and subsequently more and more people with less and less understanding of fundamental musical concepts.

It's the same that's happened with the advent of readily available music technology via computers. If any schmuck with a few bucks can now be a "composer" yet has no real time invested in the craft of composition, then you're going to get a lot of mediocre or plain crappy music flooding the internet. It's the same doubled-edged sword when it comes to disseminating information via the web. With great power comes great responsibility and all that.

I believe it's a bit arrogant for us to think that teaching is just as simple as synthesizing a couple of concepts we found on the internet and posting it on a webpage. Ask someone like gjm, teaching music isn't easy. Finding creative ways of getting concepts across can be a real challenge. The terms musicians use, like "tonic", aren't there just so people like me can "sound smart." They are terms that help organize musical concepts so that they can be taught in a coherent manner.

The whole reason the discussion got as deep as it did is because some folks were offering the solution that you could just transpose the bass line down a minor third and since F# minor has the same notes as A major it could "just work." It's just not that simple and I felt compelled to explain why it isn't. In order to understand why you have to be able to grasp concepts like relative major and minor modes, scale degree functions, and (broadly) the concept of tonality or tonal centers. Assuming that there is some "fast track" to learning music fundamentals is, IMO, lazy thinking.

If you want a solid (and free) online resource I can vouch for Ricci Adams's site:

http://www.musictheory.net/

Even the more advanced lessons give very rudimentary overviews of the concepts but I think it's probably "good enough for rock 'n' roll." There are also some good ear training exercises on the site.

[gjm]

Yeah i see what you are saying but that is not what I was doing. I transposed an A minor scale up 2 semitones to become a B minor scale, and said that those were the same notes as used in D major.

"Draw notes on all the white note slots in a vertical column for where A minor is supposed to be. Now shift them up two semitones. Bingo, you now know where every note should be for B minor, i.e. D major. For the B minor scale go from B to B, and from D to D for D major scale." I just added the last sentence to clarify where you start from, although it was in the picture.

No. Same rules apply regarding structure and order. Bm has a B as its Tonic. In order to have D Major you need D as the Tonic. In your diagram in order for Bm to become D Major you simply can't say go from D to D in a Bm scale structure. You have to move the B2 to the B4 position and the C#3 to the C#4 position. Now try something for me. Unfold your piano roll. Drag you Bm scale notes using the same order so that D is the Tonic or first or bass notes. What is the result?

[gjm]

Hey funken... You did not do what I asked you to do.

No worries. Carry on.

[gjm]

You have another typo in the paragraph called A Minor where you have wrong roman numeral for 5 or V. You have used VI.

[crumhorn]

What concerns me most about all this is the idea that there can be any "incorrect" notes.

I was stuck in a theory hole for a large part of my musical life. The idea that certain chords or notes are the correct ones to use in a particular key is very limiting.

If people only ever wrote what was correct according to the Rules Of Harmony then many great classic songs would never have been written.

Here's a random example from my acoustic guitar gig book

G/// B/// C/// A/// x2
G/// A/// G/// E///

What key is it in?
Would it sound anywhere near as good if all the "wrong" notes were made to conform to that key?

I guess my point is to go with what sounds right.

[gjm]

You have another typo in the paragraph called A Minor where you have wrong roman numeral for 5 or V. You have used VI.

What concerns me most about all this is the idea that there can be any "incorrect" notes.

I was stuck in a theory hole for a large part of my musical life. The idea that certain chords or notes are the correct ones to use in a particular key is very limiting.

If people only ever wrote what was correct according to the Rules Of Harmony then many great classic songs would never have been written.

Here's a random example from my acoustic guitar gig book

eg: ||: G/// | B/// | C/// | A/// |

What key is it in?
Would it sound anywhere near as good if all the "wrong" notes were made to conform to that key?

I guess my point is to go with what sounds right.

What does quoting me have to do with your thoughts? I just pointed out that funken used the roman numeral for 6 to represent the number 5.

[crumhorn]

What does quoting me have to do with your thoughts? I just pointed out that funken used the roman numeral for 6 to represent the number 5.

Sorry, nothing at all to do with it. I must have had a senior moment and hit the quote button without realizing. I'll remove the quote to avoid any further confusion.

worrying thing is that I already edited it once and didn't notice.

[gjm]

Do you see what I meant now, in my technique? I think it's a case that those with a lot of theory couldn't see the wood for the trees. Happens. I am aiming at people with no musical knowledge. I have a friend who puts records out completely by ear.

I don't think its a case of people with lots of theory loosing sight.
As time goes by and you begin to put more of the puzzle pieces together
you can see a bigger picture. You begin to realize that it is important to be
able to communicate not only how the system hangs together but also how to
communicate the system so it can be usable. You will find that as you build
your article on theory that you may have to rethink certain things, or reword or
even remove bits and pieces.

Your technique for not playing a bum note is fine. IMO you should forget about
using the Minor as a basis for playing Majors and just educate people about how to
make a major scale.

Not sure what to make of your comment about your friend who makes record by ear.
I don't think it has anything to do with the topic.

[stringtapper]

@funken - Your reaction to my last post seemed to indicate you took it pretty personally, but I wasn't even talking about you exclusively at that point.

What concerns me most about all this is the idea that there can be any "incorrect" notes.

Classical harmony can utilize all twelve pitches of the chromatic scale via secondary dominants, secondary leading tone chords, borrowed chords, and chromatic chords (Neapolitan, Augmented Sixths, augmented triads), so from that point of view there can't be any "incorrect" notes as long as the function can be accounted for.

Modern pop harmony is characterized by uses of modes, borrowed chords, and retrogression, all elements that are seen at some point in the history of classical harmony just not to the degree that they exist in pop music. Modal borrowing is the big aspect that makes pop harmony seem like anything goes, but there's always a way to explain what is going on.

And in the end that's all music theory is for, to explain what's going on in music.

[Angstrom]

Everyone wants the adulation, but nobody wants to do the work

[Tone Deft]

totally wrong funken and you do not speak for guitar players. we can fall into the lazy trap of playing by shape but it's a musically retarded crutch to use shapes. I know exactly what you mean, I've posted about the CAGED system here but it's just the start of learning the fretboard.

same with Latin, just yesterday I was talking to someone about the connection between two words in different languages based on their Latin roots.

[Ub373NNN]

i wart to learn on scales some on time this year to go improve up my levels of music contractions.

[beatmunga]

Those with a sound education in music theory tend to make duller popular music than those that follow their ears/brains/hearts/ass.

We all know that.

So why, oh why, do some people who exhibit the latter 'DIY' trait get all snobby and try and jump on the bandwagon of the 'proper' musicians, pretending to have a half-arsed understanding of centuries old music theory? Is it a yearning to be taken seriously as a musician?

Fuck it. Be one thing or the other. And earn respect for sticking to your guns. Otherwise it gets embarrassing.

[Ub373NNN]

...their ears/brains/hearts/ass.

they go to save these for zombie in up miami

[Tone Deft]

Those with a sound education in music theory tend to make duller popular music than those that follow their ears/brains/hearts/ass.

We all know that.

So why, oh why, do some people who exhibit the latter 'DIY' trait get all snobby and try and jump on the bandwagon of the 'proper' musicians, pretending to have a half-arsed understanding of centuries old music theory? Is it a yearning to be taken seriously as a musician?

Fuck it. Be one thing or the other. And earn respect for sticking to your guns. Otherwise it gets embarrassing.

judgmental blanket statement.