Ableton Forum

pencilrocket wrote:iMac has never been sold as prosumer device. You can't blame apple for it....

Firewire and so on isn't "professional" and Apple do market their own professional software to purchasers of iMacs. Apple hardware these days is basically crap and people are paying a premium for it? Who the hell really gives a shit how thin iMacs are? Thunderbolt may be wonderful, but I still have to buy an adapter to connect devices to it, which is just another thing to lose/break.

H20nly wrote:i bought an iMac in September. it has firewire, which is a good thing.. because my mixer doesn't have a USB port.

i lied here... not intentionally. my iMac doesn't have a FW port it has a Thunderbolt port, but i bought the cable when i purchased the machine. totally spaced it.

to all those who think a 4 core 3.1 Ghz processor isn't enough to make "Pro" music... i'm a little shocked.

steff3 wrote:

Pasha wrote:Just another rant.
This slipped through..
New iMacs do not have FW800 ports.
Only USB 3.0 this means that

1) The audio industry has to adapt to new standard (in theory faster but still less reliable in sustained mode)
2) All Audio cards that we have on 'old' FW800 Standard will not work
3) Mac Mini and Macbook Pro are the only alternative with FW800 ports
4) Little by little Apple will care less about the dead standard
5) The Thunderbird to Fw800 dongle has not been thought for anything else than data transfer. Audio does not seem to work flawlessly.

What do you think?
I am curious about your comments/feelings on this

What I think? That you have no clue and should get the facts right in the first place.
Audio over FW is data transfer ... point. And it is reported to work flawlessly with UAD, MHLabs, and others. Of course there might be issues ... as there are with different FW chips and as they occurred in the past. Support of the manufacturers has to fix this.
Building computers means to move on. It would be convenient if the new iMacs had FW but does not seem to be a show stopper in general.

best

Steff,

I think you got me wrong. I meant, by having googled a lot that FW over Thunderbird is not certified
even if it actually works, by companies like Presonus & Focuswrite and even MOTU is not mentoning it.
I work in the IT world so when we say 'works but it's not supported' means that 'if you are lucky enough
you can get it to work but we are not to be blamed if it does not being not certified'.
FW over TB so far has been certified only as storage (sorry I have used data transfer in my previous post, not an English speaking..) so you can expect that 7W storage devices would work.
Yes I was intentionally provocative in the subject but for the sake of discussion. .
Over the weekend, I have personally tested that on ML latest version with latest USB patch (out on 8th November)my MIDI stuff, M-Audio Midisport 2x2 and my Keystation e61 (keyboard) won't work anymore.
The MIDI interface does not have drivers for ML and the Keyboard, supposed to be a class compliant
device does not either, because of USB 3.0. M-Audio is on the defensive here and states clearly
to hold on with USB 2.0 machines for the moment. Roland VG99 has drivers that work without glitches and pops.
I am using a Macbook Pro 2012 from a friend who kindly offered me this help. I still have to test
FW and Thunderbird to FW800 dongle and Behringer BF2000. Novation Launchpad has disconnection problems.
I have to test the new drivers. I have a superduper copy of my friend's machine so that I do not mess up too much with it

So my rant now has supporting facts :
Being Class compliant means no driver is involved and hardware has to work out of the box.
I can understand that M-Audio has been considered crap on this forum but one thing is having no driver
for a device who needs one (M-Audio flaw), another is plugging a class compliant device who worked on my old iMac USB 2.0 under SL and see that it does not anymore. This is an Apple flaw.
Roland VG99 is complex device and needs complex drivers for Audio/Midi/Channel Mixing over USB.
So Roland is responsible to maintain its still on the shelves hardware and they are. Surprisingly I have to say.

I found you telling me that I have no clue was not fair. I have clue. Facts. Analysis. Because of this 'innovation' I have to spend more money. Maybe my gear is not top notch but I am not a pro and I am not supposed to spend a lot of money of my Budget on this stuff.

In a week I'll know more after the testing. One thing is for sure: Serious companies deliver drivers along with innovation others do not. However, when innovation is not shared in the ecosystem we users, pros or not
suffer the change. Can you name Audio/Midi interfaces on the market which sport a USB 3.0 or TB interface?
Not that I know. At least in the companies I know of. All is in the making. Some are looking at the Gigabit Network Port that offers high performance at a low price. Apple was known as the Pro company for Video and Audio. This has changed. Apple is mass market now. Leaving artists behind is a bad thing IMHO hence the post.

Hope it's clearer now as I had no intention to start any flame war.
I thank you because your answer pushed me to ask to all of my friends to lend me 1 Macbook 2012 for a week.
Just like... see... touch with my hand and stop googling.... A better approach.

Bye
Pasha

Oddly enough these changes have made lean more toward windows 8. The new interface there is smooth and I'm looking forward to using a touchscreen laptop with full blown operating system to work with ableton. While my mid 2009 mbp works, its getting much less stable.. For reasons i mentioned earlier i def will not be getting a new mbp.

Apple forgets about musicians ? Did they ever remember or even should they remember ? Why ?
It is more of the fantasy of some musicians if they considers themselves "special" , privileged group - rather naive view of reality. I dont think Apple ever particularly cared, juts like Microsoft or Sony, HP etc if any huge company would ever bother about such tiny end user group. Using celebrities from music world for endorsements, giving free products or paying for using (directly or being featured in an add) is another story but "remembering" ?
Blaming Apple for some M audio or whatever gadget not working with updated OS is simply kindergarten mentality. Blaming audio gear manufacturers is different story but in the end users should blame themselves if they repeatedly buy products from companies that widely gained reputation for low quality control, poor support - M audio is obvious example.
Got new Echo 2 USB interface last week, it works out of the box on Mac, no drivers to install that is not any miracle, simply Echoaudio did their job. Remember Propellerheads announcing Lion compatibility 2 months before the OS release. The fact is that some hard and software companies do not do their jobs on time and some other do - the choice is yours. It is up to the users to be smart and buy products wisely. If you buy Focusrite, TC or Presonus and complain about Apple, Microsoft, Gods and the rest of the universe, because of terrible latency, it is your own fault. Should have bought RME but probably same people bitch about RME having overpriced products.
Grown ups should know their needs and priorities, take time to get themselves informed before parting with their cash. Knowing that there might be issues with USB3 I bought late 2011 last July instead of the latest because I have no time for lotteries. Once sure all things work might re sale it and get the latest. If I need firewire I dont buy retina MBP. Even knowing that the TB adapters work in most of the cases, the most is not good enough for me, I have no time for experimenting and then bitching.

rikhyray wrote:Apple forgets about musicians ? Did they ever remember or even should they remember ? Why ?

Many years ago Apple marketed their products to pro users. Those of us who were using Macs back in the day do remember this, & notice the shift away from pro users to consumers.

The early success of Apple as a company was based to a certain extent on these same pro users. As we have maintained out loyalty to Apple products, so many of us would like to see that loyalty reciprocated. But, alas, the world belongs to the consumers.

Combine this with Apple's very aggressive abandonment of technologies it no longer wants to support & you can see why some people have become frustrated.

rikhyray wrote:Apple forgets about musicians ? Did they ever remember or even should they remember ? Why ?
It is more of the fantasy of some musicians if they considers themselves "special" , privileged group - rather naive view of reality. I dont think Apple ever particularly cared, juts like Microsoft or Sony, HP etc if any huge company would ever bother about such tiny end user group. Using celebrities from music world for endorsements, giving free products or paying for using (directly or being featured in an add) is another story but "remembering" ?
Blaming Apple for some M audio or whatever gadget not working with updated OS is simply kindergarten mentality. Blaming audio gear manufacturers is different story but in the end users should blame themselves if they repeatedly buy products from companies that widely gained reputation for low quality control, poor support - M audio is obvious example.
Got new Echo 2 USB interface last week, it works out of the box on Mac, no drivers to install that is not any miracle, simply Echoaudio did their job. Remember Propellerheads announcing Lion compatibility 2 months before the OS release. The fact is that some hard and software companies do not do their jobs on time and some other do - the choice is yours. It is up to the users to be smart and buy products wisely. If you buy Focusrite, TC or Presonus and complain about Apple, Microsoft, Gods and the rest of the universe, because of terrible latency, it is your own fault. Should have bought RME but probably same people bitch about RME having overpriced products.
Grown ups should know their needs and priorities, take time to get themselves informed before parting with their cash. Knowing that there might be issues with USB3 I bought late 2011 last July instead of the latest because I have no time for lotteries. Once sure all things work might re sale it and get the latest. If I need firewire I dont buy retina MBP. Even knowing that the TB adapters work in most of the cases, the most is not good enough for me, I have no time for experimenting and then bitching.

100% right. M-Audio lost me as a customer now. I trust Novation to get new drivers and BCF2000 to work. That's why I'll go for a refurbished iMac 2011 due to the fact that all retailers have now zero inventory.
I do not feel myself special in any way. I am not a pro, however I have to right to buy a working product that suits my needs even if it's considered sub-quality by Pros. I have to connect a 10 years old Roland JV1010 to my Mac.. should I need a 500 Euro MIDI device with dozens of ports? No. I buy the cheapest working one instead. And it has served me well since 2005. I am not feeling like bitching. For years as a musician I have heard the "go to mac" if you want hassle free music making. I have experimented both worlds and I can say they were right. Today the new Apple seems a stonewalled kintergarden. And I do not like it as I did.
Customers are assets. F***k with them and you'll lose them.

Best
Pasha

oblique strategies wrote:

rikhyray wrote:Apple forgets about musicians ? Did they ever remember or even should they remember ? Why ?

Many years ago Apple marketed their products to pro users. Those of us who were using Macs back in the day do remember this, & notice the shift away from pro users to consumers.

The early success of Apple as a company was based to a certain extent on these same pro users. As we have maintained out loyalty to Apple products, so many of us would like to se that loyalty reciprocated. But, alas, the world belongs to the consumers.

Combine this with Apple's very aggressive abandonment of technologies it no longer wants to support & you can see why some people have become frustrated.

Very well put, more than I did..

oblique strategies wrote:As we have maintained out loyalty to Apple products, so many of us would like to se that loyalty reciprocated. But, alas, the world belongs to the consumers.

reciprocated ? Believe in St.Claus ? It is capitalism, the world does not belong to consumers either, at best capitalism it making them believe so, the world is run by corporations and Apple became one of the more powerful. They are not friends, loyalty from an enterprise, you cant be serious ?
I like Apple products, use them and also enjoy them, superb design, user friendly operating system, but Apples, Abletons, RMEs, Akais are not musicians friends, never been and will never be. I wish the world would work differently , where love, loyalty, friendship be core values but definitely cant be find that in the corporate worlds, our value to Apple is just the numbers - how much yearly you spent on their products.
It is like those sad posts about prices and upgrades - people getting emotional, expecting this and that and getting disappointed. Ableton is not anyones friend , it is a company so is Bitwig, if the later will give people better conditions, deals it is not because they are better humans, more user friendly, appreciating faithful fans but to grab some customers from competitors. If Propelleheads gave users better upgrade deals than anyone else is not because they love their users more than Ableton of Steinberg does, but because they run their business more efficiently, so they could afford to take some risk that in the end worked financially to their benefit.

steff3 wrote:

Pasha wrote:Just another rant.
This slipped through..
New iMacs do not have FW800 ports.
Only USB 3.0 this means that

1) The audio industry has to adapt to new standard (in theory faster but still less reliable in sustained mode)
2) All Audio cards that we have on 'old' FW800 Standard will not work
3) Mac Mini and Macbook Pro are the only alternative with FW800 ports
4) Little by little Apple will care less about the dead standard
5) The Thunderbird to Fw800 dongle has not been thought for anything else than data transfer. Audio does not seem to work flawlessly.

What do you think?
I am curious about your comments/feelings on this

What I think? That you have no clue and should get the facts right in the first place.
Audio over FW is data transfer ... point. And it is reported to work flawlessly with UAD, MHLabs, and others. Of course there might be issues ... as there are with different FW chips and as they occurred in the past. Support of the manufacturers has to fix this.
Building computers means to move on. It would be convenient if the new iMacs had FW but does not seem to be a show stopper in general.

best

Thunderbolt to FW connector. $30. Problem solved.

I would never presume apple needs to reciprocate anything. I just think that people should get more life outta their computers for the premium we pay for it. Truth be told, I got no more life out of my mbp than I have outta windows laptops in the past. The only selling point is the OS...which is slowly slipping with the addition of crapier and more bogged down versions like Lion and Mountain lion. Essentially, what it comes down to is you now get even less and you are paying even more for a mac machine. Doesn't seem to make sense to me.

rikhyray wrote:

oblique strategies wrote:As we have maintained out loyalty to Apple products, so many of us would like to se that loyalty reciprocated. But, alas, the world belongs to the consumers.

reciprocated ? Believe in St.Claus ? It is capitalism, the world does not belong to consumers either, at best capitalism it making them believe so, the world is run by corporations and Apple became one of the more powerful. They are not friends, loyalty from an enterprise, you cant be serious ?

I can see how my use of the terms "reciprocating loyalty" could cause your response. Let me state it this way: I had hoped that that the size of the pro market would have been large enough to dictate Apple's continued support. But, I was always aware that as Apple grew, this niche market would be at risk of abandonment.

Back when the majority of people who used Macs were in the pro industries, Apple did cater to their needs. At that time this was a smart business strategy. Once Apple started to sell beyond this small group & reach a broader market their strategy changed.

And while Apple is certainly a capitalist corporation, it was not always a major corporation.

oblique strategies wrote:

rikhyray wrote:

oblique strategies wrote:As we have maintained out loyalty to Apple products, so many of us would like to se that loyalty reciprocated. But, alas, the world belongs to the consumers.

reciprocated ? Believe in St.Claus ? It is capitalism, the world does not belong to consumers either, at best capitalism it making them believe so, the world is run by corporations and Apple became one of the more powerful. They are not friends, loyalty from an enterprise, you cant be serious ?

I can see how my use of the terms "reciprocating loyalty" could cause your response. Let me state it this way: I had hoped that that the size of the pro market would have been large enough to dictate Apple's continued support. But, I was always aware that as Apple grew, this niche market would be at risk of abandonment.

Back when the majority of people who used Macs were in the pro industries, Apple did cater to their needs. At that time this was a smart business strategy. Once Apple started to sell beyond this small group & reach a broader market their strategy changed.

And while Apple is certainly a capitalist corporation, it was not always a major corporation.

That is true, much of Apple reputation was won by it's use in the pro market. Now they have other priorities and if they forget about the "pro" using mac's then it's time for pros to change to a platform that suits their needs.

I think the biggest problem with mac are: updates that dont guarantee compatibility, droping support for older technologies and not being able to upgrade hardware components easily.

oblique strategies wrote: Back when the majority of people who used Macs were in the pro industries, Apple did cater to their needs. At that time this was a smart business strategy. Once Apple started to sell beyond this small group & reach a broader market their strategy changed.

Exactly. It is as it is, but instead of getting upset, disappointed that is not as it used to be, better to see positive sides of the development. Those days Apple gear was twice as expensive compared to PCs. Now, thanks to all those iPhones, iTunes,iPad etc the prices of MBPs are practically same if not lower as of PC laptop of comparable quality, usable for music production ( someone must be real Apple hater or stuck with some softwares to buy overpriced Lenovos or OEMs tuned by Rain or similar companies).

I always thought the "pro" use was one of Apples initial selling points. Whenever you saw a Mac on tv, it was usually in the creative industries. Im sure that watermark had a big impact on apples reputation and one of the reasons for its success. I bought a mbp because musicians trusted using it live, and that had a big visual impact. (Couple this with my total disappointment with my dell laptop at the time. So many... many... many bad memories. the os that I date not speak its name....)

Things were looking rosey on the windows side again with 7 (I still had friends with laptops where random shit would happen, (and as ever unhelpful bsods) so my enthusiasm was tempered a bit, but according to most people on this forum, its been pretty smooth sailing.) Now microsoft seem to be heading in the wrong direction again. Instead of building on success they seem to have just said "fuck it, lets mix shit up again!"

If either side could see that catering to professional use, although nowhere near as lucrative, still has huge advertising potential. If the pros are happy, generally people with cash want to follow the trend. Theyre the ones writing the blogs, reviewing, using and dissecting the functions.

OSX 10.6 is the best operating system Ive ever used. 10.7 and 10.8 just fill me with anxiety! I dont want to upgrade my laptop for a long while (its a 2009 core2duo) so need to keep it maintained - probably Ill buy a solid state drive and new battery. Upgrade the RAM to 8gbs. And just live with the processing power - as, at least I can upgrade those things now. At least my set stays (relatively) stable, my plugins work, my drivers work. I have a machine I can swap some parts out on. I have a machine thats small, light, and I can use as an instrument.



I think most mac users are just left with the future decision - is osx alone worth the price of paying twice as much for the hardware. And... thats really tough. I definitely wouldnt want to buy a laptop with Windows 8 for sure. So, hopefully I can avoid any and all pc purchases for another 2/3 years at least until somebody comes up with a better solution.