Tookie Williams

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djadonis206
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Post by djadonis206 » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:54 pm

Hey guys - Tookie may have co-founded the crips but he didn't event crack cocaine - gangs in general are pretty violent but they're not the ones manufacturing guns

You'd be an idiot to not see the racism surrounding this, to not see the racism that happens everyday - this is just a small example

want a bigger example people of power would rather see a nigger dead than alive - turn on CNN and tune into New Orleans

It would harder to play the race card if the people in power weren't dealing them out


Tookies dead now and it's sad, sad that we still have to kill people (in the name of justice) to get retribution.

Topics can be debated but I'm not debating this one - you can believe think, write or whatever your beliefs on this issue but mine aren't up for debate

You should debate whether the british were right for takign over South Africa, or the Germans did the right thing with the jews, or the british made the right decision by taking slaves to america, or whether the settlers did right by the indians - blah blah - and racism doesn't exist

it's been there and will always be there, the more you sweep it under the rug and say (mostly white folks who do) "C'mon, quit playing the race card, OJ OJ OJ OJ" more it'll remain and exist (under the rug) if someone doesn't flat out call it like it is than we can just keep living in a happy dreamy place where nothings wrong

anywho, when the Jews apologize for what they did to Jesus in the passion I'll be happy :)


a
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forge
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Post by forge » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:13 pm

djadonis206 wrote: anywho, when the Jews apologize for what they did to Jesus in the passion I'll be happy :)


a
and the palestinians for that matter.....now there's irony....

M. Bréqs
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Re: Tookie Williams

Post by M. Bréqs » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:32 pm

pilcrow wrote:
Don't they punish criminals in Canada?
Nope. They pretend to, but they don't. I have a couple of friends who are screws in the prison systems, and the stories I hear about how they mollycoddle these criminal turds is absolutely jaw-dropping.

We let them vote. We let them get free university education. We give 'em cable TV, sports and recreation, 3 squares a day, and conjugal visits. Why the hell am I in debt from student loans? Perhaps I should have gone and shot somebody.

Seriously, Canada is the place to be if you're a lowlife criminal. We have the most ridiculous justice system in the developed world.

mike holiday
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Post by mike holiday » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:33 pm

i think gangs pop up do to feelings of hope/helplessness developed from living surrounded by poverty.


people who feel like there is no way out.

i think exicuting tookie resonates this feeling and sends out the message
"yup city kids...the situation IS helpless"

rikhyray
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Post by rikhyray » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:59 pm

buzzcock wrote:let me get this striaght, rikhyray. In one breath you defend Singapore when they execute someone for drug smuggling, and in the next, you condemn America for executing a convicted murderer? :roll:
I defend Singapore right to selfdetermination, no one be it american president or sweetjesus have a right to dictate Singaporian how should they run their country. I opposed defaming the name of somebodies home country on this forum.
i dont know if the man was guilty or not, if he killed or not. Keeping people on death row for over 20 years is savage, so is kiddnaping citizens of other country- learn about the recent case of a German who`s only fault was having name similar name to someone CIA looked for, so is invading independent country just to get hold of oil reserves.
All I know is that in the past 25 years that man did lot of positive work, killing him now was sensless and stupid too. Adding to further polarisation of american society. Was he hanged 25 years ago tha`s different story. Bloody 25 years, it is more then some of you are around.
In this 25 years he did more for other, humanity then then bloody imbecil parasite of Arnold S. who progagates the lowest of the low kind of pseudo entzerteinment, promoting violence, killings and appealing to the lowest subhuman instincts.
if someone should be executed the why not the ones who desigend crack and introduced it to the hoods. Those who came with that brilliant plan to eliminate Black panthers, put to practice so perfectly that it crippled most of Afroamerican population along the way. Hang those who are truly responsible for the existence of gangs in LA or elsewhere in US.
I suppose Williams probably was guilty if not for killing directly then by giving orders, he had his chance to repent and do some good work, then the bad karma caught up, he is gone, perhaps that was enough he learned and was time to go, to start new life - clean install. It is only so sad since he was positive example, role model, if there was anyone worth pardon it was him, alive he could do some more good, this way repaying for the evil he was involved before.
It is arguable if death penalty makes sense, his case is clear, sensless, useless decision of politically, socialy,morally ignorant fanatics.

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:09 pm

IMO, it's not just "gangstas in da hood" that should be dealt with.

Pass the needle to Bradley Murdoch, Arnie.

pilcrow
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Post by pilcrow » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:30 pm

djadonis206 wrote: want a bigger example people of power would rather see a n***** dead than alive - turn on CNN and tune into New Orleans
OK, a momentary tangent to discuss New Orleans--

I know you "don't debate," but you should stop spouting your offensive nonsense long enough to look at the facts from the Louisiana Dept of Health and Hospitals:
http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/news.asp?ID=145&Detail=753

The facts pertinent to your rant are these:
Race: African-American - 228 bodies (49% of total); Asian-Pacific – 2 (1%); Caucasian – 221 bodies (47%); Hispanic – 13 (2%); Native American – 2 (1%).

The US Census of New Orleans in 2000 showed this breakdown of the city's racial demographics:
Black 67%
White 28%
source: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/22/2255000.html

Put those two facts together, and it should be plain to an unbiased observer that race was clearly not a factor in who lived and who died from Katrina. Even if it went purely by the demographic, one would expect that nearly three times more blacks than whites would have perished in the hurricane.

I guess you're free to believe what you want, but don't pretend it's in any way aligned with reality.

OK, back to Tookie.

steve-o
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Post by steve-o » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:34 pm

I didn't have time to read all the posts in here but for someone who just fininshed his 2nd year of law school mid terms, I thought I could chime in.

First - Circumstancial Evidnce: Circ. ev. is not necessarily weaker then direct evidence. For example, DNA fingerprinting, forensics (CSI) is mostly Circ. Ev. So even if the 9th Circuit Appellat judge said it was circ. ev. it doesn't necessarily mean its any less relevant or convincing. The problem with evidence in general is that there are so many exceptions to admissibility that juries are likely prejudiced by evidence for one reason when its being offered for another purpose. For example, I'd bet that a lot of evidence was admitted to establish identity purposes, scene of the crime identifications, etc, that also described the gang related activities that Tookie participated in unconnected to the issues in the case. So even if there was no direct evidnce to prove Tookies guilt, alot of evidnce probably got in that described him as a bad man.

Seoncd - Plea Bargain Testiony: MOst of the testimony by tookie was by fellow criminals through a plea bargain process. This means that, but for the state letting them off the hook, they wouldn't have testified. Perjury is common in this situation, and probably one of the number one reason for, in my opinion, false convictions behind, ahem, faulty DNA and forensic evidnce

Third - the legal system: I'm against the death penalty personally. However, reform of the criminal process can't begin in the governors office or judge's chambers. It has to start at the polls when we vote for these people who ultimately have the power (state and congressional represnetatives. Prison-based corporations are already quite successfull due to the fact that they barely, if at all compensate prisoners for their labor. I see no reason why prison couldn't be incorporated and use those assets to fund a proper rehabilitation program for felons like Tookie. However, thats probably not going to happen anytime soon, so rehabilitation programs would have to get their funding from federal and state taxes. Joe and Jane America are probably not going to want to help rehab felons when they have to worry about gas prices, mortgage payments, education osts for kids, disposable income to buy new video iPods, etc.

Last minute judicial review, while helpful, is not really the solution because it interfers with the whole system of governemnt the country is based on (for those who are interested, seperation of powers and federalism). If the SC always overturned state laws (like Cali's in this case) then the feds would be interfering with the rights of Californians. (However, they did just that with medical marijuana, although the charges were federal CSA drug violations rather than the state law violations we see with Tookie)

Only 50% of our population (thats registered) vote. 50% either can't or don't care. And the majority of the 50% that do vote are Joe and Jane America. So I see the soultion taking to large steps: (1) allow free and easy access to those elgible to vote regardless of registration. Are you a citizen, over 18? Then you can vote, you're already registered. (2) MObilize activists to vote in areas of the country traditionally underepresented wth oppossing ideologies. It doen's matter if the entire states of NY and CA are outraged. If a little sttae like Rhode Island or Idaho or Utah or whatever state has a small population, has the same effective voting power, then thats where changes need to be.

I know lots people question the validity of elections, but we've seen now effecive they are recently, with the democratic swing in NJ and Virginia, and the bcomplete shut out of all of Arnolds propositions on the ballot a few months ago. So it can and does work when pople votre.

Finally - race: Given everything I've said, you have to be living under a rock to think that race didn't play a role in Tookie, doen'st play a role in the criminal judical process, and doesn't play a role in a states and this natons allocation of resources. We live in a country whose constitution was (1) designed to keep rich white men rich (2) protect slave owners and (2) suppress womens rights. Arguably, rights toward wmoen have changed over the course of the years. But blacks have been marginalized in our society: they are thugs, criminals, or rappers and sports stars. Its still rare to see black doctors and layers compared to white ones. And the problem starts all the way back at what schools they have access to, the crime in low income neghborhodds, and again, the allocation of state and federal resources to provie high quality education that insulates children from crimanl activity. But who's voting for the present day allocation of resources" jo and Jane. We need to push for more socialist reform that provides the kind of education, healthcare, job security,and access to resources that say, a country like Switzerland has. But now I digress.


I hope that thiis post wasn't too much of a bore to read. It will be nice surfing the forum again now that exams are over for three weeks.

Twil
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Post by Twil » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:51 pm

"Williams should've gotten the same needle they should've used on OJ."


Damn! "Hambone, hambone have you heard . . ."

O.J. Simpson = found innocent of murder = didn't do it, although he owned the property where the killings happened and didn't have up appropriate protection to keep the occupants safe = guilty in Civil Court = how come that shyt don't work for others who get killed in apartments? :D Shouldn't "their families" get some money? I mean, cause just cause someone stabbed you up don't mean a brick broke off the roof and crashed into your skull killing you.
"The SCARF - ACE Is In Your Face"

And I just love making time for meeting new people, chatting, reading, writing, working, playing, and most of all . . . music.

inis
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Post by inis » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:01 pm

Williams should have fried many, many years ago. Giving the opportunity, i would happily pull the switch to the electric chair myself.

smutek
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Re: Tookie Williams

Post by smutek » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:26 pm

pilcrow wrote:
chewy wrote: The thought of even spending a weekend in the US makes me cringe!

~chewy
Oh, one weekend won't do you any harm. Just don't start a drug-dealing gang or kill several people, and you'll pretty much be left alone.
As long as you are not on one of the terrorism watch lists, or as long as you don't happen share a name with someone who is on one of the watch lists. And make sure you don't know anyone who is on, or shares the same name as someone who is on one of the watch lists.

And if you are even remotely of middle eastern background (excludig Israel ofcourse) I would just forget about it. Don't take the chance. Might find yourself on a flight you don't want to be on. End up being "interviewed" in Uzbekistan or something.

As to Tookie. Regardless of what he did, if he was guilty, reformed, whatever, I don't care if he ate 500 babies.

I don't support the death penalty, no matter how heinous the crime. State sanctioned death, it makes no sense. And we are supposed to be somehow better, or morally superior to countries like Iran. We are supposed to be the moral leaders of the world? Whatever man, the United States, in its current state, is a fucking joke. Just ask the rest of the world. unfortunately for them we are armed to the teeth and the majority of our population is ignorant and detached from reality.

"Revenge" pfft.

robtronik
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Post by robtronik » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:33 pm

rikhyray wrote:
robtronik wrote:I read them all.

This is my point: How does a fascist get elected in a democracy, practice according to law, promote democratic processes, and then get accused of being a fascist?
Do your history check please: Hitler was democraticly elected, he built autobahns, and lots of other good deeds for the Germans. And what.... does that sanctify him, gives absolution ? He was insane, does it make him innocent ? Your governor is intellectually challanged does it make him less responsible ?
It is very sad that the human, humanitarian values lost, even the common sense. Arguable death penalty as preventive measure- didnt apply in this case. Just plane, crude, sensless revange.
The dream of democracy and the land of the free turned into totalitarian , brainless, sensless, ruthless nightmare.
Well, if there are people who consider A.S. actor, even good one, the propaganda of sensless violence, brainless, testless, primitive that ruled his films- good enterteinment- good luck, you are getting what you want and like.
Another defeat for the great American nation, led from one disaster to other by the leaders that majority chosen. Is democracy just the opression of minority by majority ?
Nice. Except that Hitler ran the entire country of Germany. Arnold runs the state of CA as a governor. I love my state but I hardly doubt we have the means to overthrow our federal government (assuming he wanted to, assuming he had the motive, assuming he was a fascist, well... you know what assumptions do. Make an ASS out of you and me... LOL).

I do my history and the last I checked Arnold wasn't, nor can he, run for President. Again making the comparison to Hilter and his apparent "love" for nazism/hitler totally ridiculous.

This fascist argument is STOOOPID.

Thanks,

Rob.

computo
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Post by computo » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:33 pm

well, hes dead now, so its a pretty moot point.

Hope all you "Kill the bastard" folks are dancing in the streets.

computo
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Post by computo » Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:36 pm

why would arnold take over the federal govt? All of his nurturing buddies are already there.

You see, they dont need to take over, they already have.

Maybe you havent seen the drafted bill that WOULD make it possible for Arnold "Hates-da-niggers" to run for pres. Do your research.

Again, you need to research the meaning of "fascist".

It is the marriage of Corporate power and govt. Mussolini said it himself.

We've been there for years now.

For instance...

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

Check numbers 11 and 12...

inis
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Post by inis » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:29 pm

computo wrote:well, hes dead now, so its a pretty moot point.

Hope all you "Kill the bastard" folks are dancing in the streets.
hmm, thats not a bad idea. I think ill give it a shot.

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