Fix Live 5 before even thinking about Live 6, dudes.

andrewj · Post by **andrewj** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:08 am

Okay, thanks for your support, but I tried it in session view and arrangement view, and I also tried it most often in overdub mode, like you do! It always crashed!

Nice to see, that it works for you, but does not work here!

Just switches to a newer version of OS X perhaps now it will work! Will see.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:59 pm

Synthbuilder wrote:Let us not forget the fact that using Live as a rewire host doesn't work properly either.

Not counting that vst do not work in this mode, an info that I did not get untill too late..... is it stated somewhere????

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:10 am

WaveRider wrote:
Synthbuilder wrote:Let us not forget the fact that using Live as a rewire host doesn't work properly either.

Not counting that vst do not work in this mode, an info that I did not get untill too late..... is it stated somewhere????

ONE - all VST effects do work in LIVE as a REWIRE HOST .
Only native LIVE EFFECTS work if LIVE is in SLAVE MODE.

TWO - I have NEVER had a single problem with LIVE as a Rewire HOST WITH REASON either for what it's worth.

THREE - I must have some alien version of LIVE as I haven't experienced any of the problems listed here and I've been using it since V3.0.

That said I honestly find the combo of Live Master and Reason slave in rewire modes too be one of the best rewire implementations I have come across.

This does NOT however negate the fact that some users are having many problems. This thread obviously proves this to be the case.
However some of you are having some downright bizarre behaviour happening in LIVE.

For what it's worth stick to 5.0.2 and do NOT use 5.0.3.

I do however agree with each and everyone of you 100% that LIVE 5 needs to be bug free and fully operational before there is any idea or notion of releasing a Version 6.0.

My big fear is we are seeing feature bloat as opposed to useful enhancements being added.

I quite often go back to 3.0 just for the beauty of it's sheer simplicty and ergonomy in general.

I just hope these problems get ironed out for you all

,
I'd be majorly pissed if my PC/Mac was behaving irratically under V5 also.

Synthbuilder · Post by **Synthbuilder** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:41 am

FaX-01 wrote:
ONE - all VST effects do work in LIVE as a REWIRE HOST .

I concur. I have never yet had a fault here. Some plugins do cause problems on my system, but this is a problem with the plugin and not Live.

FaX-01 wrote:
TWO - I have NEVER had a single problem with LIVE as a Rewire HOST WITH REASON either for what it's worth.

I can confirm that my timing problems with Live are not just my problems. They have been confirmed by the Abes and they are looking into it. I hope for 5.2.

But you may not hear any delay at all, it all depends on how you work.

If you use a good mixture of VSTi and Reason rack devices together, and switch on PDC, you will have delays. The amount of delay is related to the plug-in delay compensation applied by Live to a VSTi, and the sound card settings. The delays are typically around 9mS to 15mS depending on what VSTi devices are used within Live.

If you only use audio tracks in Live with Live's own internal plugins, and use Reason's own sequencer/devices, then you will NOT get a delay. So if all you are doing is adding audio tracks to Reason, then it will appear perfectly fine. I would recommend that you turn off PDC in this case though.

It is only when you use external plugs in Live, with PDC on, that the problems start to occur.

andrewj · Post by **andrewj** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:05 am

The more I hear from the varying troubles you all have here, I wonder which software I use? My software is also called Live 5.0.3, but in my Setup all VST Pluggies work fine! These fucking AU Plug Ins make me mad! Most of them work, but GForce Minimonsta and IKM Sonic Synth are the biggest opponents of Ableton and of each other! Noone likes to work with the other one! Sounds like these Waves troubles some users have. These AU incompatibilities and the crashes in MIDI recording mode are my biggest probs at the moment. Okay I use the VST versions of Sonic Synth and Minimonsta, so this is a small problem, but where can I record my Midi if not in Live!? And if I record it somewhere else, why should I use Live?

I love live and it's concept, but 3 crashs in an hour are unacceptable for a software that costs 500 bucks.

myztmuzic · Post by **myztmuzic** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:57 am

Back to the subject:

I totally agree with all users about releasing Live 6 before Live 5 is absolutely bugfree! Have used Live since it's childhood (versj.1), and I can't see ANY reason, what so ever, that owners of Live 5 should not get Live 6 for free, if the Abes release versj. 6 before Live 5 is running smooth and bugfree! This MAY save Abletons reputation in the future. Releasing Live 6 now, or in Q3, as they say, is a BIG mistake, and will put Abletons reputation at stake -Seriously!

So wake up, Abes! This can (and should) cost you big time releasing upgrades we can't trust at all

So listen to the wind -it's a breeze for the moment, but that's for now...

andrewj · Post by **andrewj** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:12 am

do not misunderstand me! I just wanted to add that this is unbelievable. they want to release the next version and charge it, but there are still so many bugs, if you look around. (Reminds me of microsoft!

)

It is not okay to charge for upgrades that fix bugs which should not be inside of an app like ableton live! I bought live to use a better sequencer than the ones I used before. Now I find myself dreaming of the good old times, where a lot more things were possible without a crash! Hopefully Live will become the tool that I was thinking of, when I bought it.

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:02 pm

FaX-01 wrote:
ONE - all VST effects do work in LIVE as a REWIRE HOST .
Only native LIVE EFFECTS work if LIVE is in SLAVE MODE.
.

Ok, nice to know, I had tried it with cubase as the rewire master and of course no one of my songs did work in live because of that.

..and I would like to add that it was for me really unexpected, FL studio and such do not have that limitation..

...I bought live 4 because it was supposed to be a vst host, so any limitations using vts- and sepecially vsti instruments are a very bad surprise, and even that I tried live demo before buying I was caught off guard by those limitations with are very big to me:

1-all VST effects do work in LIVE as a REWIRE HOST .
Only native LIVE EFFECTS work if LIVE is in SLAVE MODE.

2-vst parameters over 128 are unavailabe for control

3-auto-oscillation of parameters in vst makes using undo impossible.

Nealry all the plugins I bought and paid for have either problem 2 or 3 -but run fine in any other software that claims to be a vst host

-conclusion: live is the worst vst host I have experience working with -and I was fooled

FaX-01 · Post by **FaX-01** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:09 am

WaveRider wrote:
FaX-01 wrote:

3-auto-oscillation of parameters in vst makes using undo impossible.

-conclusion: live is the worst vst host I have experience working with -and I was fooled

Auto-Oscillation in any host with an undo history is generally problematic and know too most VST developers as causing a problem.
If none of those VSt's had auto-oscillation you wouldn't be having issues with the undo history in LIVE.
Just for the record this holds true of any auto-oscillation VST in any VST Host with an UNDO history/feature.
So the problem there is not necessarily native to Ableton IMHO.
The dev's really need to recode their synths without it.
It's the only way the problems gonna be solved unless you don't want an undo history in Live I'm afraid

.

Just for the record I find Live very stble still.
Certain VST's have been problematic in the past .
The vast majority of which where donation/freeware based.
I know it shouldn't have to be the case but through trial and error I have managed to irradicate all problematic vst's and vsti's and have not had any problems since.

Once again sorry to hear you are having so many troubles

.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:13 am

WaveRider wrote:-conclusion: live is the worst vst host I have experience working with

in my own experience, live is not the worst vst host.

no, that crown can be shared by Digital Performer and Logic Pro.
hands down.

pffft.

andrewj · Post by **andrewj** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:07 am

AdamJay wrote:in my own experience, live is not the worst vst host.

no, that crown can be shared by Digital Performer and Logic Pro.
hands down.
pffft.

But live does supppert VST! Think the other ones don't?!

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:29 pm

FaX-01 wrote:
The dev's really need to recode their synths without it.
It's the only way the problems gonna be solved unless you don't want an undo history in Live I'm afraid .

This is BS. There is a way to cure this and the Abes know it because they were the ones who told me how 1year ago: you just have to have a way to exclude those parameters from geting tracked, like an "exclude from automation" right mouse menu item. It is no big deal. "exclude from list" would make place for parameters coming after the 128th, that way we could automate the params we want -not the ones that are coming first.

Frank Hoffmann · Post by **Frank Hoffmann** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:47 pm

Interesting concept. So the whole and only purpose the "auto-oscillating parameter" can ever have is to be switched off. I would prefer the plug-in not to publish a useless parameter.

Frank

WaveRider · Post by **WaveRider** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:06 pm

Frank Hoffmann wrote: I would prefer the plug-in not to publish a useless parameter.

off course, I agree.... but in the world of vst now many have this very wrong behaviour. So because you want to give us choice and not dictate witch plugin I will use maybe you should deal with imperfect vsts in some way so we would have the best of both worlds..... ...give us more flexibility.... to use plugins that are poorly programmed maybe but have a great sound and many uses. Live is about more freedom, isn't it?

...like those params over the 128th.... they are there to be used. Give us the freedom to do so. Sometime an essential param is out of reach. .

Thanks

andrewj · Post by **andrewj** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:09 am

Frank Hoffmann wrote:Interesting concept. So the whole and only purpose the "auto-oscillating parameter" can ever have is to be switched off. I would prefer the plug-in not to publish a useless parameter.

Frank

Frank you are right, the best solution would bbe that everything would work without any troubles! That means that there are noo useless parameters published by a plug in or by any software, but it also means that Live should do it's job without crashing. I understand that there are a lot of troubles caused by other plug ins the os, the drivers of hardware and so on and so on.

Just an idea:

Perhaps other Sequencers may work with the same buggy Pluggies and with the same buggy drivers and the same buggie OS!? And perhaps these Sequencers will not all crash the same time Live crashes! Perhaps I am too far away from software development, but it seems that there are ways to fix problems!?

Is there no hope for us?