Should I switch from Mac to PC?

[Alex Reynolds]

Oh really? Well if we're making 'high-end workstation' comparisons here, I tried finding an equivalent from Apple to a quad Xeon, 500Mhz bus setup and couldn't find one with which to compare it with to be honest.

I apologize -- I didn't realize that quad Xeons are what people are buying for high-end workstations. I thought those were more for corporate servers... But what do I know?

-Alex

[Guest]

You wrote, about re-wire support:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I just went back to the site.. and it's there, you just have to read it.

My bad! They should make a bigger deal of this - I will try it out!

e.

[Guest]

...it's there, you just have to read it.

Though it is listed as an "effect"

And now back to the mac vs pc debate. We apologize for the interruption.

e.

[Guest]

who cares??? what i wanna know is should i buy a chevy or a ford??

[Guest]

"I apologize -- I didn't realize that quad Xeons are what people are buying for high-end workstations. I thought those were more for corporate servers... But what do I know?"

Well that's what is being used as high-end graphic workstations where I am employed. But then, what do I know?

[fleveneur]

I've been using Mac for 15 years. Been working on Windows more than 6. Worked on Windows NT4, workstation, 98, Me (what a joke), 2000 and now XP.

Windows has very fast CPU, that's true. But they are also very noisy and that can be a problem in a studio.
Second, when CPU get hot in Laptop, they slow down. Unless you are actually using your laptop in a freezer (just joking).

Windows crashes (2000 does, and so does XP). I was at a Reaktor 4.0 demo yesterday, (West LA Music). The guy from NI had a PC. A Sony, 2 Ghz... Well, he crashed 3 times and had to reboot 3 times. He had sound distortion (he said he would probably need to reinstall his drivers). Good luck.

I also went to see the Apple event at the Groove (LA). The DJ had a Tibook and was running Live. I asked him if it was powerfull enough and he said yes. Of course if you run 200 VST plugin you might have a problem.

The fact is: yes windows is fast. But Mac can be fast if programs are well designed. A professional Musician told me that Logic runs better on a 450 Mhz Cube than on his 1.2 Mgz PC. Setting up Logic and all his stuff was painless. On Windows, good luck.


Conclusion
You want to go cheap and just use Live. Dude, get a Dell !

But if your sound card or other incompatibilities start crashing your computer, if you get viruses that erase or corrupt your files, if you need to install updates for security, then great.

Ableton is expecting to update Live very soon. Should support Altivec and Rewire.

And as for the OS, OS X is far more advanced than XP. XP is still windows. They just put another coat on it. And they're still fixing all their security holes.

If you also want to do Video, Photo, DVD, then I trully advise you a Mac.
Sorry, but PCs are way behind. And I almost forgot. Itunes 4 is also a good reason. check out http://www.apple.com/music/ (will be available for windows later though).

IBM chip is coming. Hopefully it will solves all these issues and Ableton will have release a better and more optimized Live version.

[Guest]

Windows has very fast CPU, that's true. But they are also very noisy and that can be a problem in a studio.
Second, when CPU get hot in Laptop, they slow down. Unless you are actually using your laptop in a freezer (just joking).

Well, my laptop running an XP2200+ cpu doesn't get unduly hot and is no more noisy than my borthers powerbook (which he is now selling). Also, it doesn't slow down when it gets hot, the fan switches on. It only slows down if you have the power option switched to portable/laptop when it then scales the power. This isn't the mode to be running in for audio anyway.

Windows crashes (2000 does, and so does XP).

Windows XP doesn't inherently crash. It will crash if it is running on a bad setup or with bad hardware or drivers, which is true on a Mac too of course, and doesn't crash here period. If I set this machine up with the 6 month old drivers that came on a disk with the computer it may but I always install with the latest drivers and with this Compaq XP2200+ based laptop it's been absolutely solid as a rock with 8 I/O, Layla 24, running at 3ms without a glitch.

So something ain't right there cos XP doesn't up and crash all by itself any more than OSX or OS9 does. Give it a flaky driver or hardware glitch then sure, which is quite reasonable really. Nope, not having any problems whatsoever here and the machine is flying, not particularly noisy and doesn't get especially hot and the freezer is upstairs so it can't be that. [/quote]

[raapie]

Windows crashes (2000 does, and so does XP). I was at a Reaktor 4.0 demo yesterday, (West LA Music). The guy from NI had a PC. A Sony, 2 Ghz... Well, he crashed 3 times and had to reboot 3 times. He had sound distortion (he said he would probably need to reinstall his drivers). Good luck.

That sounds like a very bad configured PC and software. If Reaktor 4 demo is crashing on Windows this means that Reaktor 4 demo is not stable. Windows is rock solid stable, but some programs you might run on it are not. But it seems that this guy is having soundcard/driver problems.

Agreed win9x is not good, but the same can be said for MAX <= OS9

I have been checking and reading stuff since I wanted a new Laptop... but at the moment it seems that a Mac is a very bad choice (Mac users tell me this), because:
- OSX is still not fine enough (lots of MIDI issues under Jaquar, for example with the de facto RME)
- they are painfully slow compared to WindowsXP machines. the CPU is slower and the whole OSX GUI feels not as responsive as WindowsXP

I think a Centrino based laptop is very great. That's the one I have choosen by the way....

[Agnishvatta]

raapie, Centrino seems like a great choice. Which ones have you checked out? I'm looking into the Fujitsu S6000 series. This one has six channels of audio output so with the ASIO2KS drivers, when available, you can utilize prelistening with Live. This is handy if you don't want to bring your RME or whatever to live shows, etc....

tjwett, what did you end up getting?

[raapie]

I am buying an ACER Travelmate 800. I first ordered the 1.6 but since the pricedifference is a little big I am trying to change that into the 1.3 gHz model which should be okay for what I need.

[quandry]

I don't know that much, but I researched computers for three months (nov-feb this year) before buying a toshiba satellite 2430: p4 desktop 2.4 processor, 1 gig ram, xp pro, rme multiface. Love it. My little bro works at gateway and gave me a heads up on the centrino stuff that is now out. I talked with one of the engineers there at length about how I'd be using the computer (audio) and what was the most powerful thing out there. Sorry to say, but it isn't centrino. Centrino is optimized for being unplugged, like in the commercials and stuff. It is made to be a part of the super lightweight portable pcs, and to have long battery life, and be your wireless connection to blah blah blah. For serious audio, it is only even a consideration if you primarily record unplugged on batteries. Otherwise, you're paying more for less processing power. Same basic thing when comparing P4 desktop and P4 mobile processors--the mobiles are optimized for longer battery life, but you pay considerably more for less processing power. Not to mention that everytime a new processor comes out (even P4's at first) there are always issues, and centrino is not only new processor, but a new chipset, so the risk of the unknown is definitely there. Pcs rule!!!!

[Guest]

Our Avids (MAC) crash quite often... what's your point?

That what I don't understand.. it's like propaganda. So you might have encountered a poorly configured PC. My little PC-laptop doesn't crash. But I did get an emergency phone call from a friend who tried installing OS-X and screwed something royally to the point that it wouldn't even boot from a CD. So does that mean Mac's suck? No. Anyone can rely horror stories no matter what the platform. Imagine working on a projects, and turning on the machine only to see a sad mac icon... well that has heppend to me in the past. Don't act like Macs are flawless.. they are computers.. period.

Stop spreading the myth that PC's are not as stable because they truely are at this point.

Oh, and about iTunes... that thing is VERY cOOL! So cool in fact, that it looks like apple wants to cash in on the PC market.. so guess what? It's coming out for the PC too!

[Alex Reynolds]

I think a Centrino based laptop is very great. That's the one I have choosen by the way....

Centrinos are not certified with all software (one example relevant to this forum being Pro Tools) so be careful.

Windows is just not stable, folks. I've been in the computer administration biz for years and so I'm relaying this from experience. You might get lucky and have the odd machine that works, but most won't work for long because of how system errors propagate. And then the hardware is cheap, so again, when cutting corners sometimes too much gets snipped off.

-Alex

[raapie]

Windows 2000 and XP are stable in my opinion. It's the software which is making things worse, not the OS.

When you have the right hardware and drivers you shouldn't have problems, blue screens or all strange problem.

By the way if you scan the Windows Event Viewer you will know what's going on in your system... in most cases this should be fine: only warnings.

Thanks for the warning... yes I hope my Acer will work fine with Reason, Live, CubaseSX, Sonar, Wavelab and Nuendo 2.... we'll see

[quandry]

[quote="Alex Reynolds
Windows is just not stable, folks. I've been in the computer administration biz for years and so I'm relaying this from experience. You might get lucky and have the odd machine that works, but most won't work for long because of how system errors propagate. And then the hardware is cheap, so again, when cutting corners sometimes too much gets snipped off.

-Alex[/quote]


I think an important distinction needs to be made between pcs that are networked and stand-alone pc's dedicated to audio--these are two VERY different scenarios. I've worked at a few architecture firms and in undergrad and graduate arechitecture school on pcs and macs, and definitely prefer pcs as do most of my peers--they are faster, plain and simple. The pc problems I've seen have almost all been related to networking and servers. My experience with a personal, non-networked pc laptop xp pro dedicated primarily to audio has been great--i really have yet to experience all the bs that pc neighsayers talk about, and my friend with a gig RAm powerbook G4 just about started crying when he saw what i could put Live though without even going over 30% cpu at 1 ms in, 2ms out latency with RME multiface. Can't do nearly as much on his mac in Live. Not only that, but he is always talking about OSX and OS9 issues (he has both on one machine), and as much as he tells me how he just loves osx and that its the future of blah blah blah, i hear more about it freaking out on him and not allowing this or that because it is too secure for its own good and is basically a glorified public beta test.

Anyhow, it is undeniable that pcs are faster with Live, writing off all pcs by saying they are made of cheap parts is absurd--sure no-name brands and compaqs and hps are made of the cheapest parts, but a lot of pcs are made of high quality parts. And though i definitely defer to the knowledge of someone that has done computer administration, the distinction between business (non audio) pc machines that are networked with a server, and high quality pcs purchased for, and dedicated to audio is a BIG DiFFERENCE. The verdict from myself and my mac friend for Live is unanimous--my toshiba kicks his macs butt. If purchasing a pc primarily for use with live in the next few years, one would really have to love macs and have plenty of cash to throw around to decide to pay more for a machine that can do considerably LESS with Live. I gig with Live, Reason rewired into live, midi ox, bome's midi translator, and sometimes project 5 with fruity loops studio 4 opened as a vst inside P5 (also rewired into Live) all open and running at once, and have yet to have any problems with the programs or OS, just my clumsy fingers and feet.

Ryan