[OT] day without immigrants?

[computo]

what if I went to mexico and started saying "hey why don't speak english, why don't you fly the america flag everywhere, I know I snuck in here illegally but what does that matter laws are meant to be broken, if fact I want the country and everyone else for the matter to change for ME!

Please, go!

[glu]

that's very noble. unfortunately it has very little to do with the topic at hand. no one is saying immigrants are some kind of sub-humans, this isn't the neo-nazi forum, they're saying that illegal immigrants are breaking the laws of our country just by being here. and don't even say 'well get rid of the laws, man, we're all the same species.'

Snowtires, I totally understand your point of view regarding welfare program abuse, this is one of the main reasons why i think this is a complicated matter. No need to go to extremes about no laws are whatever you were saying trying to equate that to my statement about all being the same species. The truth in my statement, which I hope is more clear now, is that we need to rewire ourselves, dismantle our problematic view of ego and isolation from our fellow humans. We are all the same species, meaning if we want to keep the gene pool healthy, we need to look at the larger picture of our species, the problem as a whole. We just want to fix what is within our invisible lines and build a wall around it...we need to think about the entire species and NOT JUST FUCKING AMERICANS.

[Atomikat]

But... AMERICANS are immigrants ,too...or where did they come from?
EUROPE !!!
The only people from America were the native americans and they were killed or sent to reservations long ago.

Somebody has to do the dirty job that Americans don't do (lazy? ) and that's exactly what immigrants do in this country.

[snowtires]

We just want to fix what is within our invisible lines and build a wall around it...we need to think about the entire species and NOT JUST FUCKING AMERICANS.

like i said, that's a very noble thought, but i try to keep myself grounded in the real world. never gonna happen, dude. you and i both know that.

[djshiva]

here's my theory:

KBR (Halliburton subsidiary) has been contracted to build "temporary" detention centers for immigrants in case of "an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/natio ... nd&emc=rss
or http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/S ... -858254656

New programs? How bout a law making "illegal" immigrants FELONS? so we put MORE people in prison, then the corporations come in and use those housed in the detention centers for labor. we already have prison labor in this country, but even better, we can have NON-citizens imprisoned and used to build products and do telecommunications work.

so now you have the cheap labor force, paid for by the tax dollars of american citizens, which also forces down wages for the average worker.

the corporations get a taxpayer funded SLAVE LABOR force, under the guise of "protecting american jobs" and american jobs go downhill even more while the corporations continue to turn over record profits.

welcome to the new slavery.

[djshiva]

erg...i am not distinguishing well between the "edit" and "quote" buttons today...sorry...

[djshiva]

edit for double post

[snowtires]

here's my theory:

KBR (Halliburton subsidiary) has been contracted to build "temporary" detention centers for immigrants ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/natio ... nd&emc=rss
or http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/S ... -858254656)
in case of "an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said."

New programs? How bout a law making "illegal" immigrants FELONS? so we put MORE people in prison, then the corporations come in and use those housed in the detention centers for labor. we already have prison labor in this country, but even better, we can have NON-citizens imprisoned and used to build products and do telecommunications work.

so now you have the cheap labor force, paid for by the tax dollars of american citizens, which also forces down wages for the average worker.

the corporations get a taxpayer funded SLAVE LABOR force, under the guise of "protecting american jobs" and american jobs go downhill even more while the corporations continue to turn over record profits.

welcome to the new slavery.

why put illegal in quotes? it's not like it's in question that they're breaking the law. but, yeah, putting them in prison is just going to cost us more. i say just deport them. take them to the furthest point away from the us in mexico and drop them on the curb. at least then it'll be like, a week or two before they come back.

[M. Bréqs]

The only people from America were the native americans and they were killed or sent to reservations long ago.

That's bullshit. Anybody born someplace is native to that place.

I was born in Canada. That makes me a Canadian - Canada is my "Home and Native Land". Therefore, I am a Native Canadian. I am NOT an immigrant.

My mom was born in Canada, so she's one too. Before that, my family came from another continent - my Great Grandparents were Immigrants.

But all that said, I am still NATIVE to my land. Sure, I'm not an aboriginal indian, but I'm still native goddamnit. If I'm not a Canadian Native, then what the fuck am I doing with Canadian Citizenship? I have to be native to SOMEPLACE - if it's not where I was born, then please fucking explain from where then...

Anybody born in America is a Native American, even if your parents were Italian immigrants or your ancestors were English elites or African slaves. Dredging up history from 400 years ago to insinuate that caucasians or africans or asians born in America are somehow not "Native American" is just an excercise in exclusionism.

Yeah, the aboriginal people whose anscestors were living in North America prior to 1492 got screwed, but don't somehow insinuate that I have less stake here than they do - I've been here my entire life, and if I'm not 100% entitled to live here without guilt and admonition, or somehow sen as "less entitled" to be here than others, then that's just discrimination.

[glu]

take them to the furthest point away from the us in mexico and drop them on the curb. at least then it'll be like, a week or two before they come back.

and then we spend more billions of dollars sending them back, throwing our money away into an endless hole, just as we are doing in Iraq. I would much rather be paying for their education than paying for their deportation. Whether we like it or not, these people are a part of the U.S.'s future.

like i said, that's a very noble thought, but i try to keep myself grounded in the real world.

Didn't know the current illness of the U.S. is the only real world. Could have said the same thing when African Americans or women wanted to vote and have equal rights. It was unbelievable to many at the time. The only way for things to change is for the collective to make a social evolutionary step, and that takes much longer than individual growth and change. That doesn't negate or mearly idealize this concept.

This doesn't mean free tickets and meals for all Mexicans who are illegal or planning to illegally migrate here. I am saying look at the penalties and ask the U.S. if they feel like spending 200 billion dollars shipping people out who build U.S.highways, pick the tons of produce we consume daily, and work many other jobs that lazy Americans aren't going to do. This is huge $$$ you are wanting to put into this.

So I am guessing you are taking a utilitarian approach and saying the benifits will outweigh the burdens. I just don't see that balance. If we spend 200-300 billion dollars deporting people in the next five years, do you think we will stop there? How is this suppose to make our lives better?

[rtopia]

Somebody has to do the dirty job that Americans don't do (lazy? ) and that's exactly what immigrants do in this country.

number 1 illegal/undocumented/whatever immigrant occupation:

construction

It's not a question of lazy.

It's the unwillingness of the job seeker to work for less than a certain amount, which has evolved into...

...a "pre supposition" on behalf of employers that "no one but a non-citizen will work for the wages that they're willing to pay"

- r

ps. to be clear - I'm not saying either is right or wrong. I just wanted to establish:

1. Americans Native/Naturalized aren't lazy

2. the jobs in question aren't just agriculture related

pss. I hope this debate/protest goes on forever.
as a result of Mondays boycott, it only took me 35 minutes to get to rehearsal
(any other time it's 1.5 hours) : )_

[snowtires]

take them to the furthest point away from the us in mexico and drop them on the curb. at least then it'll be like, a week or two before they come back.

and then we spend more billions of dollars sending them back, throwing our money away into an endless hole, just as we are doing in Iraq. I would much rather be paying for their education than paying for their deportation. Whether we like it or not, these people are a part of the U.S.'s future.

like i said, that's a very noble thought, but i try to keep myself grounded in the real world.

Didn't know the current illness of the U.S. is the only real world. Could have said the same thing when African Americans or women wanted to vote and have equal rights. It was unbelievable to many at the time. The only way for things to change is for the collective to make a social evolutionary step, and that takes much longer than individual growth and change. That doesn't negate or mearly idealize this concept.

This doesn't mean free tickets and meals for all Mexicans who are illegal or planning to illegally migrate here. I am saying look at the penalties and ask the U.S. if they feel like spending 200 billion dollars shipping people out who build U.S.highways, pick the tons of produce we consume daily, and work many other jobs that lazy Americans aren't going to do. This is huge $$$ you are wanting to put into this.

So I am guessing you are taking a utilitarian approach and saying the benifits will outweigh the burdens. I just don't see that balance. If we spend 200-300 billion dollars deporting people in the next five years, do you think we will stop there? How is this suppose to make our lives better?

this is slightly off-topic, but can i just say that 'african-american' is such a ridiculous term? charlize theron comes from africa, i don't really see anyone calling her african american or even african. 99.9% of people you asked would say, 'oh, she's white.' i'm pretty sure dave matthews grew up in south africa, too. i don't go around proclaiming myself to be scottish-american. i am an american. whatever color you are, if you are an american citizen, you are an american, period. until people across the english speaking world unilaterally start referring to whites as causasians (and not 'whites'), i am going to continue calling black people black.

i read online that a white 'african-american' (was born in and grew up in africa, moved to america when he was 9 or 10), eventually became a citizen, applied for an african-american scholorship for college, but was denied flat out because he 'didn't meet the requirements.' even though he was more authentic african than anyone else applying, he wasn't black, so he wasn't african-american.

there are people from other countries here, are black people referred to as african-canadian? or african-british? do you see how ridiculous that looks? i said it before, politically correctness is turning our country into a big bunch of pussies.

p.s. if sending them home isn't going to make life better, how is keeping illegal immigrants in the country and using our tax dollars to paying for their food and housing and education going to make life better for those of us who actually belong here? our government is pissing enough money away as it is, i'd rather have the 'help out illegal immigrants' money being spent on stuff like finding a cheap, clean, renewable energy source or paying off some of our national debt or maybe even a huge tax break for EVERYONE you know, something to take care of the people who are actually supposed to live here, as opposed to catering to vagrants who snuck across the border.

[kennerb]

This actually meant something to the people who would have to stop at Ellis Island before they could officially enter the U.S.

Things changed after the "game was locked" so to speak. Every group of immigrants that has come to this country has endured severe prejudice and distrust until they established themselves in this society. When the Irish came they were trash, when the polish came they were trash, when the haitans came they were also trash. It seems like unfortunately the groups that were oppressed become the oppressers as soon as they have a hand up. That's the kind of thing that made affirmative action necessarry. If people were different it wouldn't be.

The problem as I see it is that Americans don't generally value the work that the undocumented workers do. If they were sent out we would quickly find a way to bring them back after everything went to hell in a handbasket. The problem with that is if we then have them cross the borders legally we are obligated to pay them fair wages. This would challenge our standard of living to such a degree that it would disrupt our economy heavily. That is not something the credit card and financial companies want. As long as money is cycling around and being spent they are earning interest.

The people that are let in are mostly higher educated in specialized fields. Doctors are a good example. We don't have the talent in that field that some other countries have. European doctors come over here in droves because they can make way more than they could in their own country due to capped wages and the socialized healthcare system that forces them though many more hoops than here. We allow a lot of Saudi and Indian people trained in math, science, and computer science. We again don't have enough of that talent. These countries major export is intellectual.

They still get payed less than 'natural' americans so it is a win-win for us.

Other's that come in to do menial labor are not valued as highly and as I said earlier allowing them legal entrance works to the economies disadvantage.

That is why they are kept illegal.

[DrainBamage]

The US economy was kick started by slavery, illeagals are the new slaves, this isn't completely an issue of who wants to do what jobs.

Illeagals cannot form unions, have OSHA protection, sue for wrongdoing and they can get paid under the table for less money. The GOP wants to keep them in the country and keep them illeagal.

KBR (Halliburton subsidiary) has been contracted to build "temporary" detention centers for immigrants

The detention centers can be just another way to kick money down to Halliburton, regardless of their true purpose.

[djshiva]

here's my theory:

KBR (Halliburton subsidiary) has been contracted to build "temporary" detention centers for immigrants ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/natio ... nd&emc=rss
or http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/S ... -858254656)
in case of "an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs, KBR said."

New programs? How bout a law making "illegal" immigrants FELONS? so we put MORE people in prison, then the corporations come in and use those housed in the detention centers for labor. we already have prison labor in this country, but even better, we can have NON-citizens imprisoned and used to build products and do telecommunications work.

so now you have the cheap labor force, paid for by the tax dollars of american citizens, which also forces down wages for the average worker.

the corporations get a taxpayer funded SLAVE LABOR force, under the guise of "protecting american jobs" and american jobs go downhill even more while the corporations continue to turn over record profits.

welcome to the new slavery.

why put illegal in quotes? it's not like it's in question that they're breaking the law. but, yeah, putting them in prison is just going to cost us more. i say just deport them. take them to the furthest point away from the us in mexico and drop them on the curb. at least then it'll be like, a week or two before they come back.

in answer to your question, i don't believe in the concept of human beings as "illegals". hence the quotes.

i find it rather telling that capital and corporations can cross borders freely, but people cannot. kinda shows the priorities, doesn't it?