(ot) HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY AMERICANS!

hoffman2k · Post by **hoffman2k** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:37 pm

Thats what you get for mentioning south park with Adonis in the hood

I think the point he's trying to make is: "there's a moral to everything"

Action/Reaction, Cause/Effect,...

I honestly live by the words of Bill Hicks. It's just a ride...
Don't take it all too seriously

"The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question: Is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, 'Hey – don't worry, don't be afraid ever, because this is just a ride ...' And we ... kill those people. Ha ha, 'Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter, because – it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead, spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great." [several gunshots ring out, Bill mimes being hit and falls to floor, motionless.] (Onstage closing comments of Hicks's Revelations special from 1993)

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:49 am

eyeknow wrote:
forge wrote:yeah - i know it's July 4th - but you can celebrate the good things about America without having to say it's better than others
Mr forge, please explain why it's ok for others to bash, and for americans not to say defend/pump themselves up? No, this is not an attack..........

well this is my issue in most of the debates that involve the US or US politics - and Shiva made the same point

Basically, if anyone criticises the UK or Australia then I'm interested in the points and I'll most likely agree - if anyone criticises the Prime minister of either I'll be the first to agree - it doesnt have any bearing whatsoever on me, on my nationality, on my personaly life - it is a political view about something seperate to me - government vs people

but so often you get arguments where Americans seem to really take it as a personal attack - Bush criticism becomes "America hating" - and loads of Americans talk about political things that happened before they were born as "WE did this..." "it happened to us" etc etc as though they were personally involved

I dont personally take responsibility for the English fucking over the scots and irish because I am part Englsh, Scots and Irish, nor do I feel responsible for the plight of the Indigenous Australians in the 18th and 19th centuries when the British came to Australia - I think about the situation NOW and whether I have a part in it, but not before

so why do so many Americans take this "us versus them" stance?? To me that sounds like the neo-cons actually winning and managing to con people into thinking this black and white "you're either with us or against us" bullshit is actually true

Dude, I really like most of the Americans I meet, so being called an "america hater" for criticising Bush and the war seems really odd to me.

And you mentioned everybody bashing america these days - that's because the US started an unjust war in Iraq and practically made the UN look like a worthless pile of shit - which undermines it's effectiveness for other rogue nations - and all of this affects THE WHOLE WORLD

but most people arent criticising the whole nation of the US - they are criticising the decision and the government - but by the same token I think alot of people accross the world do feel a bit bewildered at how it was allowed to happen and how he managed to get into power at all

but this is where the real cold cynicism comes in - I've spoken to so many people of many different nationalites who really just see that as a sign that democracy is dead and it really does no longer matter any more what we think, some big arsehole will buy his way into power and do what he likes for big business and screw the little guy

and that is probably the biggest irony of all - that alot of the people who Jump to Bush's defense and call people "america" haters ARE the little guy and are the LEAST important on Bush's agenda

Like someone else pointed out - "you dont really think the oil takeover is really about giving the little guy cheaper gas do you?"

eyeknow · Post by **eyeknow** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:23 am

It's cool.....

Now about the unjust war in iraq.....those (government wise) poor picked on iraq officials, poor poor saddam, they were always so fair and just in their decisions.............

Fair or not, when Iraq surrendered in the original gulf war, they did so UNCONDITIONALLY, which translated means "we own them"

Fair or not, we can do anything we want and don't need approval for it.

Fair or not, Saddam was given roughly 12 years to comply with the un resolution, and he did not.

Fair or not, we took action.

I'm not agreeing with the war, I'm just the messanger.....we had ever right legally.

We (the hated americans) don't feel very safe right now.....is it russia/ex ussr? not really
Japan.......no
Australia? no
Canada? yes, but that's a different issue

IT'S THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they do not threaten just the us.......in case you were not aware, they take out frustrations anywhere they seem fit.

before there ever was a us, for thousands and thousands of years, the middle east has been at war. With everyone, all the time......

Sometimes, there are truces.....they don't last. They war. It's not an opinion, it's simply a statement of fact.

So, they say we are the evil..........how? They were at war with each other UNJUSTLY for thousands of years...........and before there was a usa. And for what ???

RELIGION! Most of the time anyways.......please......god never says "go and kill people"..........PLEASE!

Oh, and the slave thing........um.........Britain was doing that way before there was a us...........how bout that south africa! Why do you think they are there..........?

Australia? You are pretty damn young there son.........younger than us. Besides how can I trust the opinion of people who were started by a penal colony?

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:40 am

eyeknow wrote:

It's cool.....

think I'll leave it there....we're reading from different books

robtronik · Post by **robtronik** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:21 am

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

read that? that's what makes us great. we set the bar high. we don't always make it, but at least we try. And that is what Americans are proud of.

If you think its somehow easy to flip a switch and be the perfect citizen, country, or in general, human, then you live in a fantasy world.

We aren't better than anyone else. We are all human. Its what we try to do while we are here that matters - and what we do to be the best we can.

You wonder why we are a powerhouse in so many things? Its not money or our military. Its our principles that we strive to live by that create the by-product of success.

This is why we want others to be like us. We live well compartively speaking and those that have similar governments and political systems do well compartively speaking as well.

Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. is not the benchmark by which we are celebrating being american. We celebrate being a country that has shook off the British, lived through a devestating civil war, the fight for equal rights, surviving WWI and WWII, etc.

There is a LOT wrong with us. But that doesn't mean that you, oh perfect ones, don't get to celebrate your birthdays and reflect on the good things that you are on the day you were born.

So, yeah. Happy FOURTH OF JULY.

rob.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:30 am

Confused

It's cool.....

Now about the unjust war in iraq.....those (government wise) poor picked on iraq officials, poor poor saddam, they were always so fair and just in their decisions.............

Fair or not, when Iraq surrendered in the original gulf war, they did so UNCONDITIONALLY, which translated means "we own them"

Fair or not, we can do anything we want and don't need approval for it.

Fair or not, Saddam was given roughly 12 years to comply with the un resolution, and he did not.

Fair or not, we took action.

I'm not agreeing with the war, I'm just the messanger.....we had ever right legally.

We (the hated americans) don't feel very safe right now.....is it russia/ex ussr? not really
Japan.......no
Australia? no
Canada? yes, but that's a different issue Laughing

IT'S THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they do not threaten just the us.......in case you were not aware, they take out frustrations anywhere they seem fit.

before there ever was a us, for thousands and thousands of years, the middle east has been at war. With everyone, all the time......

Sometimes, there are truces.....they don't last. They war. It's not an opinion, it's simply a statement of fact.

So, they say we are the evil..........how? They were at war with each other UNJUSTLY for thousands of years...........and before there was a usa. And for what ???

RELIGION! Most of the time anyways.......please......god never says "go and kill people"..........PLEASE!

Oh, and the slave thing........um.........Britain was doing that way before there was a us...........how bout that south africa! Why do you think they are there..........?

Australia? You are pretty damn young there son.........younger than us. Besides how can I trust the opinion of people who were started by a penal colony? Laughing Laughing

Those are exactly the kind of statements and sentiments that make people hate Americans. We don't "own" shit.

IT'S THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they do not threaten just the us.......in case you were not aware, they take out frustrations anywhere they seem fit.

Is it any wonder? Their lands have been convetted for oil for the entire last century.

before there ever was a us, for thousands and thousands of years, the middle east has been at war. With everyone, all the time......

That's a very shallow and misguided statement. If you're referring to the Crusades, the Christians in Europe picked the fight. But, to group all the people from the middle east as a whole is bordering on retarded. Muslims have only been around for less than 1400 years, that's not thousands of years. Not all arabs are muslim. After the Persian Empire was defeated by Alexander the great, there wasn't really much going on in that part of the world, besides being conquered by others, until Mohammed showed up. If you're talking about the Ottoman Empire, than they're Turkish and they also conquered the middle east. They've been conquered and reconquered for a number of different reasons throughout history (most recently because of oil), but mainly because of trade routes between the east and the west.

How would you feel if people were constantly picking fights with you?

Sometimes, there are truces.....they don't last. They war. It's not an opinion, it's simply a statement of fact.

please, save your platitudes and diatribes; they're unbecoming without valid sources. Where are your so called facts?

We (the hated americans) don't feel very safe right now...

And they feel safe? At least you don't have foreign troops on your soil. Can you even fathom what's its like to live under occupation? Constant curfews? Humiliation by your so called saviors? Americans are not there treating these people humanely. If you discount that, just consider that every single soldier there considers every arab (Man, woman or child) to be a possible militant (terrorist, or whatever you want to call them). What would you be doing if someone was on your land telling you what to do, where to go, when to do it? Would you be fighting for your "freedom". Just to be clear, i don't think alot of the "terrorists" are necessarily fighting for their "freedom", but for control. But, that's going to happen anywhere you have this happening. Before the US went in there, everyone was warned that there would be a power vacuum and this would happen.

Britain was doing that way before there was a us

And also banned the practice waaayyy before us. And, actually enforced it for that matter.

Australia? You are pretty damn young there son.........younger than us. Besides how can I trust the opinion of people who were started by a penal colony?

Ha, that's like a 2nd grader talking to a 1st grader.

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:45 am

robtronik and eyeknow - did either of you read any of my last post out of interest?

because i think you both went on to then demonstrate my point, but quite contrary to my non-confrontational or non-accusational comments, you both actually went a step further and made it look like you're not in fact taking anti-bush/war comments to heart personally and are trying to stick up for the unfortunate tarnished image of the ones whe are really the good guys, instead you made it look like you are actualy defending your right to world domination based on the fact that you really are better than everyone else.

Doesnt sound much like "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." -

some are more equal than others - and Americans are the most equal of all.

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:54 am

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It's funny that you post that, because in that document, there is no mention of slavery as an institution (yet, all men are created equal)... that's for a very good reason. If there would have been, this country would have never been born. I find that very ironic.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

That was originally written by John Locke, as "life, liberty, and property." Jefferson changed it to "pursuit of happiness" because that was the only way he was even allowed to address the issue of slavery in the Declaration. None of the Southern colonies would sign a document that took their livelihood (slavery) away. The funny thing is, Jefferson was a lifelong slave owner.

I prefer Locke's two Treatise's on Government:

Government is a contract between citizens and their rulers.
The purpose of government is:

- to protect the rights of life, liberty, and property.
- to create order in society.

Citizens have the right to rebel against a government that does not respect the rights of its citizens.

Rulers should stay in power only as long as they have the consent of the people they govern.

-----

My biggest gripe against the US is it's no longer a goverment 'by the people', but more 'for the corporations'. It's been like that since the late 19th century. During the first 100 years, America was struggling to find it's identity, which manifested into the Civil war. In it's short history, it's managed to go against every one of it's principles and so called ideals. I'm an american and a patriot.

astronmr20 · Post by **astronmr20** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:08 am

eyeknow wrote:

It's cool.....

Now about the unjust war in iraq.....those (government wise) poor picked on iraq officials, poor poor saddam, they were always so fair and just in their decisions.............

Fair or not, when Iraq surrendered in the original gulf war, they did so UNCONDITIONALLY, which translated means "we own them"

Fair or not, we can do anything we want and don't need approval for it.

Fair or not, Saddam was given roughly 12 years to comply with the un resolution, and he did not.

Fair or not, we took action.

I'm not agreeing with the war, I'm just the messanger.....we had ever right legally.

We (the hated americans) don't feel very safe right now.....is it russia/ex ussr? not really
Japan.......no
Australia? no
Canada? yes, but that's a different issue

IT'S THE MIDDLE EAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they do not threaten just the us.......in case you were not aware, they take out frustrations anywhere they seem fit.

before there ever was a us, for thousands and thousands of years, the middle east has been at war. With everyone, all the time......

Sometimes, there are truces.....they don't last. They war. It's not an opinion, it's simply a statement of fact.

So, they say we are the evil..........how? They were at war with each other UNJUSTLY for thousands of years...........and before there was a usa. And for what ???

RELIGION! Most of the time anyways.......please......god never says "go and kill people"..........PLEASE!

Oh, and the slave thing........um.........Britain was doing that way before there was a us...........how bout that south africa! Why do you think they are there..........?

Australia? You are pretty damn young there son.........younger than us. Besides how can I trust the opinion of people who were started by a penal colony?

Did I just hear someone say something intelligent on this board? (:

I DID!

(flame suit zipped up. Ready for torching).

astronmr20 · Post by **astronmr20** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:12 am

And by the way- the Catholic Church was all about power and control ever since Constantine, and I don't allign myself with it in any way, but if you read your history, you'll see how they launched the crusades in direct response to Moorish agression to the south and the east. It's very simple.

(NOW we're takin' this waaay back, old school.)

And...

The middle east had been a traditional "trouble spot" long before anyone even knew what oil was.

And...

the comment "owning your ass" was meant to be metaphorical. I think.

glu · Post by **glu** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:16 am

astronmr20 wrote:
Did I just hear someone say something intelligent on this board? (:

I DID!

What?

stinky · Post by **stinky** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:21 am

but if you read your history, you'll see how they launched the crusades in direct response to Moorish agression to the south and the east. It's very simple.

Shit, maybe you should study geography as well as touch up on your history.. what the hell do moor's have to do with the middle east. The moors were from west africa and occupied the iberian peninsula.. Oh, you're taking about the the Reconquista as if it's the same thing. That's funny.

djshiva · Post by **djshiva** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:26 am

forge wrote:
eyeknow wrote:

It's cool.....
think I'll leave it there....we're reading from different books

LOL!!! i had the exact same thought, forge...

forge · Post by **forge** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:34 am

djshiva wrote:
forge wrote:
eyeknow wrote:

It's cool.....
think I'll leave it there....we're reading from different books
LOL!!! i had the exact same thought, forge...

LOFA · Post by **LOFA** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:38 am

djshiva wrote:
thelike5 wrote:
djshiva wrote: i have to bring up the obvious point, and that is that america engaged in genocide to get this country, slavery to build it, imperialist meddling in other countries (think central and south america) and countless wars to ensure its economic and military might.

i can't be too impressed with the track record so far...sorry man...
Where else are you going to go? Like Europe, Africa, and Asia have less blood on their hands??!!

Until there is a Utopian society, I think a majority of us are stuck here, on Earth.

When and if you want to come down from the clouds, hit me up with a reply...
oh believe me i don't think the US is the only one with blood on our hands. i have read my history, so don't go thinking i would just talk smack about american history. every nation has a chequered past. i just happen to live in this one, so i have a vested interest in knowing what is being done in my name.

i just take issue with people constantly talking about how much better the US's track record is than the rest of the world, when a) the track record sucks, and b) we're no better or worse than any other nation. our country is just better at public relations than others, so we are really good at spinning ourselves into looking better.

it's not "head in the clouds" to want to discuss the history of this nation or any other from an informed perspective, instead of just spouting out patriotic "truisms" that have no bearing on reality. that is all i am getting at here.

**edited to add**

one thing i am afraid of is that the current state of politics is going to cause people to compare this administration to others and actually have the others come out looking favorable, when that is not the case at all.

one thing that drives me crazy about many liberals (and i count myself as more radical than liberal, but usually get tagged with the big L), is that in the midst of this Bush ridiculousness, they will start talking with starry eyes about the days of Clinton. uhhhh...clinton got involved in wars, had missiles shot at pharmaceutical factories in sudan and afghanistan, and basically played a nice sized role in the telecommunications act of 1996 as well as NAFTA. so he killed people, and gave away our media to the corporations, and opened up our borders to allow jobs to move overseas.

he was no saint, and it annoys me that people keep inferring that he was. and therein is the problem i have. dig deeper and find truth, instead of just taking in the propaganda and regurgitating it as your own opinion. if anything, that would be the point i am trying to make, albeit clumsily...

Thank you DJ Shiva. I really appreciate you sharing this perspective. I think that this is one very big, important observation. Some of the most radical thinkers I know were teetering between Nater and Bush in 2000 after the Clinton administration, and I'm talking granola-eating Ithacans! Our country is so fucked up that it only gets worse when people try to pass it all of on Bush. He is just the head that brought to our attention the festering boil on our foreheads. Will we take the responsiblity of lancing it right, or will we make a mess and have it spread everywhere...