Ableton! Tighten the Sequencer!

blakbeltjonez · Post by **blakbeltjonez** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:40 am

i've found that Live can often get a bit wobbly if your latency is set low enough and you have enough going on in the sequence, where CPU struggles a bit.... not at the point of audio crackling, but at some point before that. with the latency up higher, the problem goes away. not an issue if you're going to render the audio, but for live performance you'd want to make sure everything plays back solid.

timing is definitely different than my MPC playing back the same samples, same basic sequence..... it's subtle but noticable. it's not worse per se, just different.

deva · Post by **deva** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:02 am

knotkranky wrote:
deva wrote:
knotkranky wrote: It's just silly not to vote yes for tighter midi.
If there is a problem, I agree, but if there is not a problem, then it is silly to vote for Ableton to spend time fixing something that aint broke.

I would not vote in this poll because it has nt been made clear if there is a problem, and if so, what it is.
Agreed, though broke doesn't come into the equation for me, just tighter under more circumstances. I use it just fine for what I do, but to not wish for tighter midi timing is like not wishing for more powerful computers. I'm cutting a fine hair here but it's relevant to many who want it. Certainly, some sequencers and drum machines are tighter, more robust, and lock better than others. There is no reason why an internal midi program and sound couldn't be sample tight. Difficult? you bet. Want it? you bet

If nobody can demonstrate a specific instance where there is a problem, then it is good enough as is, and Ableton should spend their time elsewhere.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:42 am

mercyplease wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
deva wrote: If there is a problem, I agree, but if there is not a problem, then it is silly to vote for Ableton to spend time fixing something that aint broke.

I would not vote in this poll because it has nt been made clear if there is a problem, and if so, what it is.
Agreed, though broke doesn't come into the equation for me, just tighter under more circumstances. I use it just fine for what I do, but to not wish for tighter midi timing is like not wishing for more powerful computers. I'm cutting a fine hair here but it's relevant to many who want it. Certainly, some sequencers and drum machines are tighter, more robust, and lock better than others. There is no reason why an internal midi program and sound couldn't be sample tight. Difficult? you bet. Want it? you bet
By your own admisson on page three you say you use live in a limited capacity. I imagine that to mean you use it as a rewire slave as a fancy sampler. Your experience is limited and unless you have recorded multiple tracks of midi running a the same time you wont be able to tell with any degree of accuracy.
Go and sequence a few Vsts adding drums bass and percussion. dont use it as a slave just live on its own and use simpler and impulse.
I personally guarantee you wont experience midi slop. If you do I want the live file and an audio file revealing your midi slop. Then I will record it using the very same sounds as you and prove there is no midi slop.

if you come back and waffle then your full of shit. Do this simple test knotkranky for your sake because all you have done here is checked the ratio of yes men and thought there must be a problem.
Would you really trust many opinions in this forum. I see a total lack of the most basic knowledge everywhere around here. Its not their fault because their newbies. Think about it a newbie using live is basically presented with a fully blown state of the art studio from the 80's. They have to be programmers, musicians, engineers, producers and are even trying to be mastering engineers. Along the way they pick ou onall sorts of wrong information and nearly always jump to conclusions. Do you understand where Im coming from? so if you are as experienced a syou say you are then this little five minute test I suggest you do would help you out and others. Go on you can do i!

I look forward to your results.

mercy, mercy, mercy, You want me to present proof to you while you treat me like an ass? Hell no. lol. You haven't given me one reason to be cool to you. You just chase me around saying I'm full of shit. Really, that's all you do. You need to chill and not make such a huge case out of it. You are so tenacious, for what reason I don't know. Bro, you really focus way too much on the negative to protect some utopian live world that shines above all forces of criticism and any other program. Live is perfect, perfect, perfect in your world. How can that be a positive force in improving it? My point is that no program is perfect and there are degrees of that in all of them including live. Relax.

Now, understand. If one doesn't hear it, it isn't there. If one needs proof, then they don't need proof. Some people can hear it, but anyone who can knows what to do. We are all ok.

My proof is much less relevant when It is all too simple for any single person to test for themselves and do the most conclusive test possible. Their own. Everybody's got something different going on in live which makes my own results useless to this forum. Hell, why not get the very author of this post to show you his results, he started it. (sorry dude)

As far as the newbies are concerned, you need to give them a little more credit and space to decide for themselves. They'll do just fine without your protection. If there is anything useful in this thread for them it might be knowing how to check for timing errors. Slave a drum machine to live, slave live to a drum machine, try mtc in both directions, lock up a sound module, a drum machine and battery, print similar kick snare hat from all three and check it out. Try different instrument plugs with tons of cc's, try none. You get the picture. And one more time, This is not a wrong or right issue. It's a matter of degree and knowing what is helpful to keep it solid.

Would you really trust many opinions in this forum. I see a total lack of the most basic knowledge everywhere around here. Its not their fault because their newbies

Yes, I trust many opinions in this forum. And I don't see a total lack of basic knowledge at all. I've learned a few things from newbies too. Don't underestimate the positive power of anyones opinion, even if they're wrong. Curious and wrong is better than timid and right. You of all people should be giving them a bigger break. Now, lets not chastise each other any longer.

frisbeedisk · Post by **frisbeedisk** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:47 am

Tarekith wrote:
frisbeedisk wrote:you should try getting a machinedrum to sync..can be a knightmare!!!
I'll let you know if the TM-1 fixes this.

NIce one Tarekith, im waiting on one to be sent over..should get it monday...fingers crossed!!!

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:58 pm

We got a machinedrum syncin' fine ... (Its my friends, I'm just waitin' for him to bring it down now, cause he's just got the sampler upgrade back. Anyone else used the Ram version yet? I can't wait to make some sounds on it using my own samples.)
One thing with the MD I found, is it seems to have a complicated midi setup (3 Midi Channels are used). It took me a while to figure out how to control it and I still don't fully understand it. It seems like everything on it can be controlled externally.
d.

forgie · Post by **forgie** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:34 pm

knotkranky wrote:
mercyplease wrote:
knotkranky wrote: Agreed, though broke doesn't come into the equation for me, just tighter under more circumstances. I use it just fine for what I do, but to not wish for tighter midi timing is like not wishing for more powerful computers. I'm cutting a fine hair here but it's relevant to many who want it. Certainly, some sequencers and drum machines are tighter, more robust, and lock better than others. There is no reason why an internal midi program and sound couldn't be sample tight. Difficult? you bet. Want it? you bet
By your own admisson on page three you say you use live in a limited capacity. I imagine that to mean you use it as a rewire slave as a fancy sampler. Your experience is limited and unless you have recorded multiple tracks of midi running a the same time you wont be able to tell with any degree of accuracy.
Go and sequence a few Vsts adding drums bass and percussion. dont use it as a slave just live on its own and use simpler and impulse.
I personally guarantee you wont experience midi slop. If you do I want the live file and an audio file revealing your midi slop. Then I will record it using the very same sounds as you and prove there is no midi slop.

if you come back and waffle then your full of shit. Do this simple test knotkranky for your sake because all you have done here is checked the ratio of yes men and thought there must be a problem.
Would you really trust many opinions in this forum. I see a total lack of the most basic knowledge everywhere around here. Its not their fault because their newbies. Think about it a newbie using live is basically presented with a fully blown state of the art studio from the 80's. They have to be programmers, musicians, engineers, producers and are even trying to be mastering engineers. Along the way they pick ou onall sorts of wrong information and nearly always jump to conclusions. Do you understand where Im coming from? so if you are as experienced a syou say you are then this little five minute test I suggest you do would help you out and others. Go on you can do i!

I look forward to your results.
mercy, mercy, mercy, You want me to present proof to you while you treat me like an ass? Hell no. lol. You haven't given me one reason to be cool to you. You just chase me around saying I'm full of shit. Really, that's all you do. You need to chill and not make such a huge case out of it. You are so tenacious, for what reason I don't know. Bro, you really focus way too much on the negative to protect some utopian live world that shines above all forces of criticism and any other program. Live is perfect, perfect, perfect in your world. How can that be a positive force in improving it? My point is that no program is perfect and there are degrees of that in all of them including live. Relax.

Now, understand. If one doesn't hear it, it isn't there. If one needs proof, then they don't need proof. Some people can hear it, but anyone who can knows what to do. We are all ok.

My proof is much less relevant when It is all too simple for any single person to test for themselves and do the most conclusive test possible. Their own. Everybody's got something different going on in live which makes my own results useless to this forum. Hell, why not get the very author of this post to show you his results, he started it. (sorry dude)

As far as the newbies are concerned, you need to give them a little more credit and space to decide for themselves. They'll do just fine without your protection. If there is anything useful in this thread for them it might be knowing how to check for timing errors. Slave a drum machine to live, slave live to a drum machine, try mtc in both directions, lock up a sound module, a drum machine and battery, print similar kick snare hat from all three and check it out. Try different instrument plugs with tons of cc's, try none. You get the picture. And one more time, This is not a wrong or right issue. It's a matter of degree and knowing what is helpful to keep it solid.

Dude, while mercy may be being negative, you are behaving like a politician.... seriously, I have no idea on how accurate Live's MIDI timing is, but all you have done is evade the one thing that can actually shed light on shit slinging match, and that is some hard evidence. If you are right, prove it. What's the problem with that? If you don't, you are

a) wrong, and you look like a dick

b) right, and you look smug (dick)

I don't get it. I wouldn't want to be either one, but as long as you are saying all this shit without putting forth any evidence of any kind, you are one or the other. Why not just get it over and done with?

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:43 pm

knotkranky wrote:
mercyplease wrote:
knotkranky wrote: Agreed, though broke doesn't come into the equation for me, just tighter under more circumstances. I use it just fine for what I do, but to not wish for tighter midi timing is like not wishing for more powerful computers. I'm cutting a fine hair here but it's relevant to many who want it. Certainly, some sequencers and drum machines are tighter, more robust, and lock better than others. There is no reason why an internal midi program and sound couldn't be sample tight. Difficult? you bet. Want it? you bet
By your own admisson on page three you say you use live in a limited capacity. I imagine that to mean you use it as a rewire slave as a fancy sampler. Your experience is limited and unless you have recorded multiple tracks of midi running a the same time you wont be able to tell with any degree of accuracy.
Go and sequence a few Vsts adding drums bass and percussion. dont use it as a slave just live on its own and use simpler and impulse.
I personally guarantee you wont experience midi slop. If you do I want the live file and an audio file revealing your midi slop. Then I will record it using the very same sounds as you and prove there is no midi slop.

if you come back and waffle then your full of shit. Do this simple test knotkranky for your sake because all you have done here is checked the ratio of yes men and thought there must be a problem.
Would you really trust many opinions in this forum. I see a total lack of the most basic knowledge everywhere around here. Its not their fault because their newbies. Think about it a newbie using live is basically presented with a fully blown state of the art studio from the 80's. They have to be programmers, musicians, engineers, producers and are even trying to be mastering engineers. Along the way they pick ou onall sorts of wrong information and nearly always jump to conclusions. Do you understand where Im coming from? so if you are as experienced a syou say you are then this little five minute test I suggest you do would help you out and others. Go on you can do i!

I look forward to your results.
mercy, mercy, mercy, You want me to present proof to you while you treat me like an ass? Hell no. lol. You haven't given me one reason to be cool to you. You just chase me around saying I'm full of shit. Really, that's all you do. You need to chill and not make such a huge case out of it. You are so tenacious, for what reason I don't know. Bro, you really focus way too much on the negative to protect some utopian live world that shines above all forces of criticism and any other program. Live is perfect, perfect, perfect in your world. How can that be a positive force in improving it? My point is that no program is perfect and there are degrees of that in all of them including live. Relax.

Now, understand. If one doesn't hear it, it isn't there. If one needs proof, then they don't need proof. Some people can hear it, but anyone who can knows what to do. We are all ok.

My proof is much less relevant when It is all too simple for any single person to test for themselves and do the most conclusive test possible. Their own. Everybody's got something different going on in live which makes my own results useless to this forum. Hell, why not get the very author of this post to show you his results, he started it. (sorry dude)

As far as the newbies are concerned, you need to give them a little more credit and space to decide for themselves. They'll do just fine without your protection. If there is anything useful in this thread for them it might be knowing how to check for timing errors. Slave a drum machine to live, slave live to a drum machine, try mtc in both directions, lock up a sound module, a drum machine and battery, print similar kick snare hat from all three and check it out. Try different instrument plugs with tons of cc's, try none. You get the picture. And one more time, This is not a wrong or right issue. It's a matter of degree and knowing what is helpful to keep it solid.

Would you really trust many opinions in this forum. I see a total lack of the most basic knowledge everywhere around here. Its not their fault because their newbies
Yes, I trust many opinions in this forum. And I don't see a total lack of basic knowledge at all. I've learned a few things from newbies too. Don't underestimate the positive power of anyones opinion, even if they're wrong. Curious and wrong is better than timid and right. You of all people should be giving them a bigger break. Now, lets not chastise each other any longer.

I asked you to do one little test that would take you no longer than five minutes to prove to your self that theres no problem with lives midi timing.
You spent longer writing your response rather than just sit there and sequence up a bassline and drum part to prove something to your self.
Your so fucking full of shit man!!

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:49 pm

forgie wrote: Dude, while mercy may be being negative, you are behaving like a politician.... seriously, I have no idea on how accurate Live's MIDI timing is, but all you have done is evade the one thing that can actually shed light on shit slinging match, and that is some hard evidence. If you are right, prove it. What's the problem with that? If you don't, you are

a) wrong, and you look like a dick

b) right, and you look smug (dick)

I don't get it. I wouldn't want to be either one, but as long as you are saying all this shit without putting forth any evidence of any kind, you are one or the other. Why not just get it over and done with?

Im not being negative at all. Im outing this charlatan who does nothing but post bullshit after bullshit.

Spiralgroove · Post by **Spiralgroove** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:57 pm

knotkranky = troll

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:02 pm

ha...

knotkranky caught talking through his ass again.

a 45 yr old shite-peddler - sad.

<--chucks a rock at knotkranky

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:03 pm

Spiralgroove wrote:knotkranky = troll

I wouldnt say a troll im probably more of a troll than he is. Very occassionally he will write somethiing I can empathise with but its rare. Behind the bullshit he seems a decent sort as well its just a pity he never admits to be wrong. I think he just wants to be loved and respected.

He should really do that simple test though. It would take him five minutes at the most. So should anyone else who thinks theres a problem with the midi sequencer.

Spiralgroove · Post by **Spiralgroove** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:03 pm

guy hasn't backed up one single thing he's said yet with hard evidence

this is why we need an ignore button

mercyplease · Post by **mercyplease** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:07 pm

b0unce wrote:ha...

knotkranky caught talking through his ass again.

a 45 yr old shite-peddler - sad.

<--chucks a rock at knotkranky

I though this was spretty funny actually especially the rock chucking. I have a vision of that in my head round the back of Ableton Hq. You know the bit that the shite peddlers are taken to after being kidnapped and confronted by an angry mob of ableton forumers with rocks

ruprecht · Post by **ruprecht** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:02 pm

Does the following test illustrate anything relevant to this discussion?

Create a MIDI clip with a quantized beat containing "real world density" like 16th notes and 32nd notes, etc. at a down tempo say 85 BPM - the tempo range alleged to create problems.

Route the MIDI to another track using Live's internal routing. Turn off record quantize. Record the MIDI into the new track. Zoom in and see where the notes fall on the grid.

If there were MIDI playback timing errors shouldn't they be reflected in the unquantized recording of Live's midi playback?

I tried this and the notes line up perfectly.

I suppose the same "slopiness" could plague both the MIDI playback and recording functions simultaneously so there would be no difference between the two as depicted in live although they would not be truly in time if played against a perfect external metronome. Or worse, Live cheats and doesn't really re-route the MIDI when you use internal routing but rather just copies the relevant portion of the MIDI being "routed" and pastes it into the track which would account for the perfect alignment.

However, I also recorded the audio out and it lines up quite nicely with the grid as well. Surely, the MIDI and audio recording facilities do not share the same exact same timing problems. I suppose live could cheat here as well by calculating the render of the orig MIDI file and just inserting that into the audio track.

So, I also routed the MIDI externally by plugging a MIDI cable from my MOTU Traveler out to the Traveler in. I did the same test but used this external routing. This time there were small errors. But, these could obviously have been introduced by the Traveler. In fact, I did the same thing using Cubase SX3 and it had similar errors. So, that means either the Traveler is the culprit in this case or Live 6 and SX3 suffer from similar MIDI playback timing issues.

b0unce · Post by **b0unce** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:06 pm

thanks,

but we're waiting for the shite-peddler's test results (control/test midi files + control/test audio files zipped and hosted for all to see). chances are he'll piggy-back on your findings, like any politician worth his contract with satan would do.

edit: probably not, now that I've said this.

Ableton! Tighten the Sequencer!

Tighten up the Sequencer?