When my arrange view looks like this...

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
ethios4
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am

Post by ethios4 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:43 pm

I don't have anything to offer here, other than that I have been battling this problem for years as well. I work in much the same way, and end up with thousands of tiny edits, and Live chokes on zoom. From my experience it sure seems like a graphical problem, not audio related. The problem persists whether audio is playing or not....

noisetonepause
Posts: 4938
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
Location: Sticks and stones

Post by noisetonepause » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:07 pm

Tarekith wrote:Isn't that what freeze does though? I froze ALL audio tracks and no improvement.
From your description it's definitely graphics related (freeze doesn't change the graphics; if anything it makes it worse as it has to overlay the blue colour)... the fact that audio is unaffected is actually a tribute to the good design of Live, I'd think.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

Machinate
Posts: 11648
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Machinate » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:20 pm

I still think it's a problem with the way Live handles waveform drawing and individual clip display - something which doesn't change when freezing.

Tarekith, I know this isn't what you are looking for, but could you try consolidating the tracks into full stems? Just as a test, really.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

nebulae
Posts: 15717
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:32 pm

Machinate wrote:I still think it's a problem with the way Live handles waveform drawing and individual clip display - something which doesn't change when freezing.
Can you explain further what you mean by this? Not sure I'm understanding.

Machinate
Posts: 11648
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Machinate » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:34 pm

That merely displaying loads of individual snippets of sound is what is slowing Live down - which is why freezing doesn't help in that case. I would guess there is also some caching going on, etc... but hey, I have no clue.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

noisetonepause
Posts: 4938
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2002 3:38 pm
Location: Sticks and stones

Post by noisetonepause » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:56 pm

I'd think that there is no caching going on: it sounds plausible that Live is redrawing the waveforms for each individual clip (which it might have to, with warp marker settings, volume, etc., affecting the waveform), causing a slow down as that is a LOT of waveforms to redraw... and drawing a waveform isn't as easy as it looks, I don't think.
Suit #1: I mean, have you got any insight as to why a bright boy like this would jeopardize the lives of millions?
Suit #2: No, sir, he says he does this sort of thing for fun.

nebulae
Posts: 15717
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:00 pm

Since there has been no official comment on this topic (for years), we can only conjecture. Along those lines, the drawing of waveforms only occurs once. In Sonar, Cubase, and in Live's ASD files, the waveform is stored. Live can manipulate millions of bits at a time, so I can't see how drawing waveforms affects the graphics performance. It's quite a mystery.

Come on Abes, give us a clue here. What gives?

Machinate
Posts: 11648
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:15 pm
Location: Denmark

Post by Machinate » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:01 pm

nebulae wrote:Since there has been no official comment on this topic (for years), we can only conjecture.
No, not at all - look a few posts up, I suggested quite a simple test: Select the whole track and consolidate, to see how that affects performance.
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

kineticUk
Posts: 1531
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:37 am

Post by kineticUk » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:01 pm

I'd like ableton to look at improving this area (arrangement no good)
Thank You Please Thank You
Bye
MacBook MacOS Live 9.7.1 Max for Live Push Logic

nebulae
Posts: 15717
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:07 pm

Machinate wrote:
nebulae wrote:Since there has been no official comment on this topic (for years), we can only conjecture.
No, not at all - look a few posts up, I suggested quite a simple test: Select the whole track and consolidate, to see how that affects performance.
I agree that we can try different tests to see what might be the cause. What I'm trying to say is that usually the Abes tend to do a post and give good explanations. Like the Live audio engine discussion, and other nuggests, straight from the Henke brain. I'd love to hear an official explanation as to why other DAWs can be smooth with their graphics engine while Live can still lag. Of course, we're giving credit where it's due - things have improved significantly since v5.

rasputin
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:16 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA
Contact:

Pardon me if this has already been suggested...

Post by rasputin » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:28 pm

Tarekith: how large would that set be if packed? Would you be willing to let other people bring up the set on their hardware (I'm thinking PCs with hot graphics cards especially) to see if they have the same problem? That might give a data point on whether the issue is more CPU architecture or Live design...

yourmom
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:49 pm

Post by yourmom » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:33 pm

this problem is much improved with 6 over 5. but yeah. its still a problem. youre just going to have to render tracks and delete all those beautiful edits every once in a while...

but whatever. music is auditory. not visual.

nebulae
Posts: 15717
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:38 pm

yourmom wrote:but whatever. music is auditory. not visual.
Small point of disagreement here...I have been producing music for about 15 years. When I used to work on 4-tracks and analog machines, music was almost entirely auditory - I didn't even care that much about the peak meters. Since the age of the DAW, I think music production has become a lot more visual. Colors, color-coding, waveforms, peaks, and metering are all absolutely critical. The more you see, the better you can produce. The ball is in the Abes' court to fix this issue.

yourmom
Posts: 200
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:49 pm

Post by yourmom » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:40 pm

nebulae wrote:
yourmom wrote:but whatever. music is auditory. not visual.
Small point of disagreement here...I have been producing music for about 15 years. When I used to work on 4-tracks and analog machines, music was almost entirely auditory - I didn't even care that much about the peak meters. Since the age of the DAW, I think music production has become a lot more visual. Colors, color-coding, waveforms, peaks, and metering are all absolutely critical. The more you see, the better you can produce. This issue is in the Abes' court.
... well no fucking shit on that point. couldn't agree with you more. im talking strictly about stutter edits. if he renders the stutter edits to one solid waveform that will not affect his ability to further edit the track. or it will.. but more positively than negatively...

when someone listens to his track nobody is going to SEE the stutter edits.... that was what i was trying to say. as an artform the end product is not visual. nobody is going to SEE his beautiful stutter edits.

nebulae
Posts: 15717
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:16 am
Location: New Orleans
Contact:

Post by nebulae » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:47 pm

So BT's song, Somnambulist, is in the Guiness Book as holding the largest number of edits. Something crazy shit like 6,000 edits. If he did it in Live, you have to wonder who he'd kill when he went apeshit with graphics frustration after the first 1000 edits.

Post Reply