Live audio quality?

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:44 pm

LJN wrote:If Live's audio quality is as good as some (incl Mr Henke) claim, why then are so many people bringing up this question again and again?

because those people are not really into it for the music making..
they're industry geeks with too much time off to spend on poluting our screens with wasted pixels..

i'm really curious what music the constant complainers do..

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:52 pm

no, it's the power of incorrect information being repeated over and over again.

Part of the origin of this myth is that some knucklehead engineer types took a look at live after younger electronic musician's claims about live as a great new tool for WRITING music with software.

The older engineer types eventually heard enough buzz to start checking it out.

they did, but didn't realize that whatever audio clips they dragged into live automatically had time compression/expansion (warping) applied to them to match the current set's tempo. hearing the effects of warping, these cats said "live's audio quality sucks" and reported as such without ever taking the time to figure out what was going on. You see, live was very different from any DAW they had gotten used to using.

just part of the story, but a big one, i believe. because of this ignorance, us live users have been fighting the image of our software as a "dj toy" for a long time.

.lm.

LJN · Post by **LJN** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:02 pm

Got the feeling some people missed my point here but anyways... The complainers will prove their point in the end.

rbmonosylabik · Post by **rbmonosylabik** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:06 pm

LJN wrote:Got the feeling some people missed my point here but anyways... The complainers will prove their point in the end.

I think I'm missing the point.... ....how are they going to prove it?

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:07 pm

LJN wrote:The complainers will prove their point in the end.

aaaaahhh, and I swore not to get involved in this..
but comments like this get you dragged in the mud so easily..

*prove what?*
what is there to prove..?

put your cards on the table or leave in silence..

LJN · Post by **LJN** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:17 pm

Personally I don't have a problem with Live's audio quality but I'm not 100% sure there isn't a problem with it. In fact, I reckon there's got to be a problem somehow, otherwise this topic wouldn't pop up again and again. So then, if enough people complain, in the end, whatever problem there might be, will be found and will be solved. But if dead certain Live users keep telling the complainers the only problem is them, well then Live won't improve. Would it?

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:19 pm

LJN wrote:Personally I don't have a problem with Live's audio quality but I'm not 100% sure there isn't a problem with it. In fact, I reckon there's got to be a problem somehow, otherwise this topic wouldn't pop up again and again. So then, if enough people complain, in the end, whatever problem there might be, will be found and will be solved. But if dead certain Live users keep telling the complainers the only problem is them, well then Live won't improve. Would it?

FIX WHAT?? it's the worst kind of bug reporting.

you're not 100% sure?? that doesn't speak much for your production skills, hearing or understanding of audio.

taken from a NASA transcript:
"Space Shuttle Discovery... I think we have a problem with the Space Shuttle, I'm not 100% sure there is a problem but this guy on the internet says that the Space Shuttle shouldn't be able to fly. please reconfirm that you ARE indeed in orbit. we're delaying your re-entry time until we can confirm that this is a problem."

anyway, just another troll thread.

Poster · Post by **Poster** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:31 pm

LJN wrote:Personally I don't have a problem with Live's audio quality but I'm not 100% sure there isn't a problem with it. In fact, I reckon there's got to be a problem somehow, otherwise this topic wouldn't pop up again and again.

question;
who do you believe; your own ears or other peoples speculation?

rbmonosylabik · Post by **rbmonosylabik** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:43 pm

Typical scenario:

- DJ/Bedroom producer hears about Live and wants to jump on bandwagon
- Gets his "legitimate" copy (or the Live Demo)
- Drags "Delirium - Silence" into a track
- Hears it warble or with artifacts
- Trolls the forum

Facts:

- Digital Audio is summed the same in every DAW.
- There are differences in how developers tune their DAWs (panning laws, rounding, fade curve smoothing), but most are unnoticeable or can be easily compensated for when testing DAW vs. DAW.
- Time stretching a file will modify the way it sounds in any DAW
- If you don't read the manual, you don't know how Live's timestretching works. If you don't know how it works, you don't know how to make it work the way you want it to.
- Scientific, controlled, well done tests > Any Pro's ears

mdb · Post by **mdb** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:19 pm

I'm gonna have to disagree with "the test" done that prove its the same. My ears tell me different.

I can load raw wav files in Live, and then same files in reaper without any processing what-so-ever, same sound card, same Sample rate, same everything. And i can hear a substantial difference in clarity using reaper. The original poster is right. The high end and clarity in Live isn't as good as other programs. Remember, these are audio engines, They are going to process the sound different, and give you different results.

Is that big of a difference?? Its pretty noticeable to me. Does it make you want to switch? Not really, I get way more inspiration and creative flow from Live then other program i have ever used, and I'm more then happy to take a cut in audio quality for that alone.

Your kidding yourself though if you think Lives audio quality is up to par with Pro tools, Reaper, Sonar.... it just ain't there yet when your comparing them side by side.

Tarekith · Post by **Tarekith** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:40 pm

Edit - nevermind, not getting into this again.

evernaut · Post by **evernaut** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:47 pm

mdb wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree with "the test" done that prove its the same. My ears tell me different.

I can load raw wav files in Live, and then same files in reaper without any processing what-so-ever, same sound card, same Sample rate, same everything. And i can hear a substantial difference in clarity using reaper. The original poster is right. The high end and clarity in Live isn't as good as other programs. Remember, these are audio engines, They are going to process the sound different, and give you different results.

Is that big of a difference?? Its pretty noticeable to me. Does it make you want to switch? Not really, I get way more inspiration and creative flow from Live then other program i have ever used, and I'm more then happy to take a cut in audio quality for that alone.

Your kidding yourself though if you think Lives audio quality is up to par with Pro tools, Reaper, Sonar.... it just ain't there yet when your comparing them side by side.

Don't really know why i'm even adding to another thread on this ridiculous topic, but all I can say is that I've listened very closely to the results of my own tests in just about the best acoustic environment I know ( the Music Research Centre studios at York University, UK ) through some heavy duty Genelec monitors and I would defy anyone to hear any difference whatsoever between Ableton Live and any other quality DAW under these conditions.

Any 'difference' you hear is entirely subjective - lots of people have been convinced that Logic or ProTools are the big boy's gear and so regard Live as more of a toy application, hence the prejudice. I've used them all, and the results are always only ever as good as the sources, imagination and talent you use and the outboard gear you employ.

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:50 pm

Tarekith wrote:Edit - nevermind, not getting into this again.

lol, I was on the verge of posting and thought the exact same thing...

Cool thing is that in a very web2.0-ish kind of way we are all tied together by these long invisible strands::: Since the same exact discussion is taking place *right now!* on different forums across the entire inter-web about every imaginable piece of hardware and software...

We do what we can to not make music is my point...

tylenol · Post by **tylenol** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:28 am

Machinate wrote:
Tarekith wrote:Edit - nevermind, not getting into this again.
lol, I was on the verge of posting and thought the exact same thing...

Yeah, I have such trouble resisting being drawn in to these threads when the "I believe my ears not summing" people start posting

mdb · Post by **mdb** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:52 am

evernaut wrote:
mdb wrote:I'm gonna have to disagree with "the test" done that prove its the same. My ears tell me different.

I can load raw wav files in Live, and then same files in reaper without any processing what-so-ever, same sound card, same Sample rate, same everything. And i can hear a substantial difference in clarity using reaper. The original poster is right. The high end and clarity in Live isn't as good as other programs. Remember, these are audio engines, They are going to process the sound different, and give you different results.

Is that big of a difference?? Its pretty noticeable to me. Does it make you want to switch? Not really, I get way more inspiration and creative flow from Live then other program i have ever used, and I'm more then happy to take a cut in audio quality for that alone.

Your kidding yourself though if you think Lives audio quality is up to par with Pro tools, Reaper, Sonar.... it just ain't there yet when your comparing them side by side.
Don't really know why i'm even adding to another thread on this ridiculous topic, but all I can say is that I've listened very closely to the results of my own tests in just about the best acoustic environment I know ( the Music Research Centre studios at York University, UK ) through some heavy duty Genelec monitors and I would defy anyone to hear any difference whatsoever between Ableton Live and any other quality DAW under these conditions.

Any 'difference' you hear is entirely subjective - lots of people have been convinced that Logic or ProTools are the big boy's gear and so regard Live as more of a toy application, hence the prejudice. I've used them all, and the results are always only ever as good as the sources, imagination and talent you use and the outboard gear you employ.

Name dropping dont mean shit dude. I could be dropping names of high end gear i use, and degrees in audio i have. But that aint gonna change reality.. You seem to think that your opinion suddenly means more because youve used x gear and y facilty. Your nobody dude. Get used to it. You dont know what i do, so dont act like i dont know what im talkin about because you disagree, and have shitty ears.

You guys can live in your little dream world and believe that live is just as good. Thats great! more power to you. I could care less, It's your crappy music, not mine. Theres plenty of us professionals that know better.