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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:01 pm
by Machinesworking
Tone Deft wrote:it's $120 to update, how cheap ARE you people?
Nobody's arguing that the price isn't OK, just that the extras are too expensive, and the update isn't offering them what they want.
I agree though, headquest summed up my feelings on the subject.
My only difference is I do use other DAWs as well as Live, though I would prefer to work only in Live.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:14 pm
by leedsquietman
Apologies for the rant. I really don't mind people voicing disappointment or feature requests for Live, what bugs me is people saying 'Logic 8 gave us this, bye bye ableton etc, ableton are dead in the water and similar comments'
If people are that shallow/impatient they should go and use whatever magical software floats their boat, where some of these people will surely be whining at that forum come next update time.
Objective comments are one thing, just saying 'Live 7 sucks, I'm going to Logic/Reaper/Sonar etc. Bye Bye' etc. Well goodbye indeed - and good riddance !!
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:16 pm
by vanheusen
I think it's a good idea that Ableton has made the decision to make all of these instruments/soundbanks optional. Though I think it would have been an even better idea to put those efforts into the core application instead.
Ableton is unique in many ways,and should not try to compete with Logic e.t.c. There is nothing wrong with Live developing towards a more production-friendly program or "DAW", in fact I like mixing in Ableton, but all of these optional instruments is a bit overdoing it. I bought and use Live for its unique workflow, especially with sampling, and its general fun factor! Live 7 looks great as well, but most users (as me) probably will not buy any of the add-ons.
A lot of people are comparing Live's pricing to that of Logic 8, which is a very inappropriate comparison. Apple and Ableton are very different companies, for good or bad.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:18 pm
by Tone Deft
Machinesworking wrote:Tone Deft wrote:it's $120 to update, how cheap ARE you people?
Nobody's arguing that the price isn't OK, just that the extras are too expensive, and the update isn't offering them what they want.
I agree though, headquest summed up my feelings on the subject.
My only difference is I do use other DAWs as well as Live, though I would prefer to work only in Live.
true. I think people got sticker shock seeing the web page with prices already summed up. it might make better business sense to NOT tell people their total, let them buy the basic $120 upgrade, then add electric, operator and a sound pack or two. the extras themselves seem to cost about the same as their non-Ableton counterparts.
good point about using a Live synth in another app. I'm Live only for DAW work.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:23 pm
by Machinesworking
Not get silly about this, but Ableton update roughly every year, at $119
Three years have passed since Logic 7 so Live 7 from earlier version if you choose to be up to date is $357 bare Minimum, $477 for the boxed versions, and Logic is $199............> Digital Performer had two paid upgrades at $398.
Basically, the upgrade path in Live is cheaper, but more frequent, so more expensive.
OvertoneZero wrote:I would much prefer to spend my $$$ on a streamlined but extremely well-designed music creation program that does everything I want it to featurewise rather than see Ableton trying to become another 'bundled package' vendor. I already have plenty of plug-in synths, effects, etc.
If Ableton wants to do both and offer the option, do it, but keep your priorities straight and don't start adding more synths and stuff like that until all of the important sequencer features are nailed down..
I agree, it's a perceived lack of focus, whether or no it has merit is not for me or any of us to know, that might be answered later after Ableton are bought by Microsoft or something!
I'll buy the update I'm sure, I have no willpower to wait an entire year for the added excitement of two upgrades for the price of one! I'm a sucker that way.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:27 pm
by Igor L
leedsquietman wrote:Apologies for the rant. I really don't mind people voicing disappointment or feature requests for Live, what bugs me is people saying 'Logic 8 gave us this, bye bye ableton etc, ableton are dead in the water and similar comments'
If people are that shallow/impatient they should go and use whatever magical software floats their boat, where some of these people will surely be whining at that forum come next update time.
Objective comments are one thing, just saying 'Live 7 sucks, I'm going to Logic/Reaper/Sonar etc. Bye Bye' etc. Well goodbye indeed - and good riddance !!
I feel you, man. This deluge of bitchy/whiney/cunty complaints on this forum is starting to get old.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:40 pm
by nolus
My theory is that it's the content that gives direction to the development. it's like: Question "Ok what would we need to add in live to support a multisampled multimiked drum kit similar in capability to BFD?" Answer "Drum Racks"
If they were only interested in content they would have just thrown it in in the form of a non editable rompler type thing, but being ableton they implement it in such a way that a new creteive tool is born.
The createive tool is useful to everyone the content that inspired it is optional.
Seems like a very good way to do things if you ask me.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:45 pm
by jlgrimes
djadonis206 wrote:
seems odd to keep the boat a float the abes claimed ableton sounded just as good as Logic, Cubase etc so why update the audio engine?
Well Sonar has a 64 bit audio engine and Traction has 64 bit summing. Pro Tools has 48 bit fixed point summing.
Ableton (v6), Logic, Cubase, and DP has a 32 bit audio engine.
So Logic and Cubase aren't the Abes only competitors.
With 64 bit processors and 64 bit Operating Systems, sooner or later creating a 64 bit audio engine is kind of inevitable.
I'm sure Logic, Cubase, and DP will follow this pretty quickly.
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:50 pm
by Josh Von
Tarekith wrote:OvertoneZero wrote:Trolling through the forum ruckus, it looks like there are some pretty cool changes in version 7. There are also some big gaps.
Simply put, I would encourage Ableton from both a commercial and artistic perspective to put 100% of their future development energy and focus into refining Live's base functionality and not worry about throwing in all the extras.
I would much prefer to spend my $$$ on a streamlined but extremely well-designed music creation program that does everything I want it to featurewise rather than see Ableton trying to become another 'bundled package' vendor. I already have plenty of plug-in synths, effects, etc.
If Ableton wants to do both and offer the option, do it, but keep your priorities straight and don't start adding more synths and stuff like that until all of the important sequencer features are nailed down..
There are some important features still missing from Live, like dual-monitor support and non-destructive audio overdubbing for clips that just seem like no-brainers.. How many more years? Forever?
Keep it on the right track.
Well and proper said.
Yes, totally agree on this
.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:00 am
by feerhoof
I might have smoked crack without knowledge of when I was 17... not a very good trip....
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:10 am
by Machinesworking
feerhoof wrote:I might have smoked crack without knowledge of when I was 17... not a very good trip....
I smoked crack in probably 88, in an apartment in the Tenderloin district of SF CA with a couple black dudes and a girl I was dating for a place to stay, who later on was on the cover of Spectator magazine.
If Tonedeaf knows what that means, (Spectator, Tenderloin) then he's got SF cred, if not then he's just visiting.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:15 am
by Machinesworking
My real beef is that I'm once again going to update Live and Logic.
That's $318 total, because Live doesn't do what Logic does, and Logic doesn't do what Live does.
I'm betting that Live becomes a full featured DAW and sequencing instrument before Logic or Mainstage get anywhere near Live's integration of real time song manipulation, but in the meantime I buy both updates, and continue to use both.....>
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:30 am
by leedsquietman
Steinberg are working on 64 bit mixing and 64 bit total architecture, they have been for some time. They might make it available in an update to C4 or most likely as they are greedy money grubbers, it will be available in Cubase 5.
They still refuse to make 192 Khz available though, this is one thing they are keeping for Nuendo, even though Live, Sonar, Reaper, Tracktion and others offer it. No biggie as imho it;s just a waste of filespace but SB continually ignore their users requests. I mean, Cubase is now on about version 13 and they still don't have sidechaining, they introduce media bay which no one ever asked for and they keep telling users they will update Cubase 3.1.1 to 3.1.2 dozens of times and deny they will drop it, then lo and behold, they drop it and release Cubase 4... and no sign of an apology.
This is why I am looking forward to Live 7, I will rarely have to return to using Cubase which is great, Steiny's bullshit customer service has left a sour taste in my mouth and I hate having to revert to their software.
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:34 am
by ilia
Josh Von wrote:Tarekith wrote:OvertoneZero wrote:Trolling through the forum ruckus, it looks like there are some pretty cool changes in version 7. There are also some big gaps.
Simply put, I would encourage Ableton from both a commercial and artistic perspective to put 100% of their future development energy and focus into refining Live's base functionality and not worry about throwing in all the extras.
I would much prefer to spend my $$$ on a streamlined but extremely well-designed music creation program that does everything I want it to featurewise rather than see Ableton trying to become another 'bundled package' vendor. I already have plenty of plug-in synths, effects, etc.
If Ableton wants to do both and offer the option, do it, but keep your priorities straight and don't start adding more synths and stuff like that until all of the important sequencer features are nailed down..
There are some important features still missing from Live, like dual-monitor support and non-destructive audio overdubbing for clips that just seem like no-brainers.. How many more years? Forever?
Keep it on the right track.
Well and proper said.
Yes, totally agree on this
.
+100
Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:35 am
by siddhu
ethios4 wrote:Updating Live's audio engine in no way means there was a problem with it before, or that your muddy mixes can be blamed on Ableton. According to this logic, they should never update anything because to do so is an admission that things weren't as good as they could be before. For all you know, it sounded as good as every other DAW out there, and now it sounds better. People have been making killer mixes on equipment less advanced than Ableton for a really long time. Don't blame your tools!
+1