Bypass record modifier

nowtime · Post by **nowtime** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:41 pm

Forge ahead!

dr.wackler · Post by **dr.wackler** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:12 am

Stefan Franke wrote:
forge wrote:
I come across this in so many situations, hence why I'm so amazed this is not a more common complaint
So are we.

So am I.

I was so amazed that many people don't even understand what forge means, that I didn't bother to read on past page 2 of this thread. Seems none of them ever re-record audio to another track while tweaking parameters. Or record an instrumentalist while adjusting the mix for for her/his monitoring. Or....

Today I jumped to the last page of the thread and was very glad to read that this has high priority on the Ableton's to-do list.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:41 am

its because originally the first post was phrased differently. The thread was called " multilane automation, is ableton going in the wrong direction". which confused a lot of people

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:55 am

Angstrom wrote:its because originally the first post was phrased differently. The thread was called " multilane automation, is ableton going in the wrong direction". which confused a lot of people

true - but I have brought this up a few times over the years and always been surprised how few people seemed to think it was important

I guess it is something that is difficult to explain

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:16 pm

yes, it's hard to write concisely and informatively on a subject when the readers generally have a short attention span . The question "is this applicable to me" is foremost on everyones mind.
The Pyramid writing style is best, where a sentence long abstract which gets repeated in increasing detail. Pictures are worth at least 1000 words also.

muthafunka · Post by **muthafunka** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:26 pm

Yes! Great to hear this is in the works, I've never quite refined why the BTA is a PITA now and again but this thread did it for me, ta.

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:15 pm

forge wrote:
mike holiday wrote:
i mean how do you know which automations you wont want!!??
that's why I said a modifier - so I can decide at the time

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:51 pm

Angstrom wrote:its because originally the first post was phrased differently. The thread was called " multilane automation, is ableton going in the wrong direction". which confused a lot of people

you know what I've been thinking about this again (mainly because I've been making some music for a change!) and I think I stand by my original thread title - I dont use multi-lane automation at all and I do think it is a step in the wrong direction for Live

the longer I spend using Live the more I feel like I'd like to have as little to do with the Arranger as possible

for me I FAR prefer re-recording a section of music rather than editing it in arrange

I've been noticing that a lot of people post requests that aim at using the Arranger as if it was a normal DAW like LogicBase et al

but for me, I'd rather stay in session and just re-record sections I want to change using pre-made scenes etc

I basically set-up most of my tracks in session then want to start recording automation so I hit record and record everything - I start recording almost straight away, so I always end up with insane amounts of unwanted automation

I feel like a lot of people keep missing the thing that makes live unique and keep wanting to work in the linear way they are used to, when all the effort with Live should be to MAXIMISE that uniqueness, not try and replicate what is already in the others for those people who used to use them and miss certain things

I would rather sequence in Live by 'automating' the session view than get into using arranger the old fashioned way

Live is so close to being like this I desperately hope Live 8 adresses these problems (i.e. my top 3 - seperate automation and sequence record buttons, session automation in clips, and BTA buttons for each track)

I think if those three things were in Live I'd fall off the world and attain Nirvana

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:02 pm

an djust to add - the day I can record all my filter sweeps into clips is the day a lot of this will stop mattering

hence the comment about multi-lane auto - I think the effort should have gone into the session automation thing, regardless of the fact that so many people requested multi-lanes - because it would steer people in the direction Live should always maintain as it's advantage and once people can record CCs in session I wouldnt be at all surprised if more people take to using it in that way and moving away from the arranger more

I HATE editing automation in the arranger - with a passion - and now multi lane auto has only magnified it by an order of magnitude....

wouldnt it be just so much easier to record evry little bit of automation by recording the knob movements on screen or controller than getting RSI tweaking with a mouse using that infuriating, bad automation set up in Lives arranger?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:05 pm

I would work in Session too, but it's far far far too limited to do what I want it to do.

I would be there forever typing in follow actions to 10,000 clips. Even then I cant see how it could possibly work for my music unless Session is upgraded massively.
Session is fine as a scratchpad, or as a performance GUI, but for making complex songs I really doubt it. I can't see that my songs would be easier to make if I did them in Session.

It's not a case of following 'what Logic does', it's simply that it is easier to write a song in Arrangement than in Session.
Session hasn't moved on in 4 years or so, it just doesn't have the features I need to work in there. Session clips are just 'a loop' (no variation) and with the limitations of linear scenes (all in a line) and no automation .. all those are just terrible inspiration killers for me.

Session is too underpowered and over-complicated for sculpting a song how I want it. underpowered = no metaclips, overcomplicated = typing follow actions. Which are fine for other musical activities, but not appropriate for arranging a song. Or even for doing serious editing and multi-takes.

All that is nothing to do with 'other programs' and how they function, it is very much to do with 'the song in my head' and the tools I have to hand to recreate it.
I have session ... and I have arrangement. Session is useless for this task (arranging). Arrangement is built for arranging. Even if it is lacking features (such as closer integration with session)

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:14 pm

Angstrom wrote:I would work in Session too, but it's far far far too limited to do what I want it to do.

I would be there forever typing in follow actions to 10,000 clips. Even then I cant see how it could possibly work for my music unless Session is upgraded massively.
Session is fine as a scratchpad, or as a performance GUI, but for making complex songs I really doubt it. I can't see that my songs would be easier to make if I did them in Session.

It's not a case of following 'what Logic does', it's simply that it is easier to write a song in Arrangement than in Session.
Session hasn't moved on in 4 years or so, it just doesn't have the features I need to work in there. Session clips are just 'a loop' (no variation) and with the limitations of linear scenes (all in a line) and no automation .. all those are just terrible inspiration killers for me.

Session is too underpowered and over-complicated for sculpting a song how I want it. underpowered = no metaclips, overcomplicated = typing follow actions.

All that is nothing to do with 'other programs' and hw they function, it is very much to do with 'the song in my headt' and the tools I have to hand to recreate it.
I have session ... and I have arrangement. Session is useless for this task (arranging). Arrangement is built for arranging.

well dont worry, I'm not proposing they get rid of it!

that's the cool thing about Live I guess - we all use it in very different ways

of course, I do use arrange (well I have to!) but I would definitely like to use it less

I like to 'play' the music from session more real time - I'm really not into micro edits - too lazy I guess - but also I actually really like the addition of chaos into my music - so I'd rather chop things up with beat repeats and sample offset and arpeggiators and random plug-ins than neccessarily move it all about in arrange

so each to their own

but I would be very interested to see if the additions I'm asking for - in particular CCs in session - would affect your workflow - but again, totally depends on what you're doing

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:22 pm

forge wrote:
I like to 'play' the music from session more real time - I'm really not into micro edits - too lazy I guess - but also I actually really like the addition of chaos into my music - so I'd rather chop things up with beat repeats and sample offset and arpeggiators and random plug-ins than neccessarily move it all about in arrange

so each to their own

I have tried doing that, but I can hear what I want very specifically in my head when I am working on a track - so if I can hear "bip snork g g gg ggg thud" in my head and the app isn't giving me that, then I am not happy.

Of course I am interested in generative stuff as well, but when I am writing my own music it drives me mad if it doesn't conform to my internal mental radio version. So I sit there chopping it up until it sounds similar to the mental ideal. Often I don't get there, but it's a lot closer than if I left it up to the application to do it.

forge · Post by **forge** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:35 pm

I guess having a specific vision to start with is a big part of it!

I love the 'serendipity' approach - the "happy accidents" take me on journeys

of course there are times there is a specific sound I want, but usually it's more a melody line or 'vibe'

Machinate · Post by **Machinate** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:06 pm

I think I fit somewhere in the middle. Also a fan of serendipity, I am not a fan of randomizing, though - I prefer when the serendipity comes out manually instead of from a random seed. For instance, I use Beat Repeat a lot, but almost always trigger it manually, with the repeat button. Anything other than that feels fake, somehow. Dunno.

kineticUk · Post by **kineticUk** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:13 pm

forge wrote:an djust to add - the day I can record all my filter sweeps into clips is the day a lot of this will stop mattering

hence the comment about multi-lane auto - I think the effort should have gone into the session automation thing, regardless of the fact that so many people requested multi-lanes - because it would steer people in the direction Live should always maintain as it's advantage and once people can record CCs in session I wouldnt be at all surprised if more people take to using it in that way and moving away from the arranger more

Bump that.