The Great BitWig Migration

[re:dream]

TTOZ, why should we care?

You say this is "simply your opinion"... but then you have given us your opinion over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I have been reading your posts attentively since the beginning, and one thing baffles me:

Why are your knickers in such a gawd-damned twist? You post as if you have been personally injured on insulted by the creators of BW.

Why the heat?

Have you tried saying 'Om'?

Breathing excercises?

Going for a walk?

[deva]

But your ignorance on the comment regarding Reason is astounding.

Reason does not use VST's... so with Reason I cannot use Diva, Zebra, String Studio etc... In other words, Reason is a complete piece of shit software that costs $400 and cannot do the most basic important thing.

[TTOZ]

TTOZ, why should we care?

You say this is "simply your opinion"... but then you have given us your opinion over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I have been reading your posts attentively since the beginning, and one thing baffles me:

Why are your knickers in such a gawd-damned twist? You post as if you have been personally injured on insulted by the creators of BW.

Why the heat?

Have you tried saying 'Om'?

Breathing excercises?

Going for a walk?

So? I enjoy ranting about it and admit it, and it's the only forum I can do it at (being their number one competitor). Don't read it or mute me LOL! I am not asking you to care, not at all!

Cheers

Hail the bitshit haters.

I might even start a website.. bitwig put the shit in bit.

LOL!

[TTOZ]

But your ignorance on the comment regarding Reason is astounding.

Reason does not use VST's... so with Reason I cannot use Diva, Zebra, String Studio etc... In other words, Reason is a complete piece of shit software that costs $400 and cannot do the most basic important thing.

I use vst with it all the time.. unlike bitshit i can use live as a rewire master (because they wanted to isolate themselves that much that they didn't even offer that most basic functionality of every other daw in existence)

Now with external midi i also use the free pedalboard and use all my vst with reason with rock solid timing. All i do is open an instrument track in reason and open my pedalboard project with as many vsti as i want.

Now to deal with facts, the basic $99 reason essentials uses RE and has all the features, it just misses out on the bigger devices. So once again you are not dealing with fact.. as bitwig only offers one level (the so called "flagship", or better, "flagshit").

If you love bitshit so much why not hang around at the bitshit forums rather than the live ones? Live is superior to bitshit and why we are here, the ones that use and love live.

[stringtapper]

And just think, you could be practicing instead.

[kb420]

I don't mean anything personal, but FUCK BITWIG!

[deva]

Why are your knickers in such a gawd-damned twist? You post as if you have been personally injured on insulted by the creators of BW.

Why the heat?

Have you tried saying 'Om'?

Breathing excercises?

Going for a walk?

He is in a less than satisfying relationship and someone new has caught his eye. So he is desperately trying to deny the feelings that are bubbling up within. One of these days he will break down in tears as he realizes that Bitwig is his true love and that all the hate was just a futile attempt to mask his true feelings.

[re:dream]

That, and he appears to be about 13 years old.

[Machinesworking]

^^^ Nah! Tozz has been around for at least ten years at KVR. He just has really strong opinions, but not so surprisingly enough they change. He used PCs and Logic, switched to Cubase, then to Logic on Mac, then to Cubase on Mac, realized latency on Mac was awful, switched to Reason, realized that RE plug ins require way more CPU than either Cubase VST or Logic AU and went on a shitstorm about it. I think now he's using either/or Cubase and Logic with Live. I'm sure I've got the sequence wrong, but one thing he can't deny, he's bitched like a madman about every DAW he's owned.

[re:dream]

Sorry, I was a bit harsh there, my bad. But the man's emotional grudge seems distinctly odd. And it makes a sane discussion of the benefits / shortcomings of any software quite difficult to have someone coming in with, like, anger issues. Seems strange to me, at any rate. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on BW (or any other piece of software).


Um, come to think of it, except for Groupwise, the creators of which should be pelted with used whiteboard markers for all eternity.

Actually, not even them.

Just the University sysadmins who continue supporting Groupwise.

Now those guys really deserve hatred.

Maybe we can sic TTOZ onto them.

[TTOZ]

^^^ Nah! Tozz has been around for at least ten years at KVR. He just has really strong opinions, but not so surprisingly enough they change. He used PCs and Logic, switched to Cubase, then to Logic on Mac, then to Cubase on Mac, realized latency on Mac was awful, switched to Reason, realized that RE plug ins require way more CPU than either Cubase VST or Logic AU and went on a shitstorm about it. I think now he's using either/or Cubase and Logic with Live. I'm sure I've got the sequence wrong, but one thing he can't deny, he's bitched like a madman about every DAW he's owned.

why be an ass about it and present it in such a fashion? I used logic solely since version 1 without ever touching anything else till apple dropped the windows version. I went to cubase for a few years as i didn't want to switch to mac having used windows all my life. I caved in eventually as i grew up on logic and went to mac and have NEVER gone back and will be mac till my days are over. A few years later, when i got SICK, and was confined and PARALYSED, and could not sit in front of a midi keyboard, i took to reason because it is easy to use with a laptop and qwerty keyboard, that's all (due to the arps, step sequencers, and drum programmers on board). The problem started when i was converting my logic songs and they couldn't run in reason due to cpu problems of RE, which took a while to find out. So i went back to Logic. I have bought Cubase on mac to re open a few old Cubase PC projects that my old client and friend wants to edit and remix. In the meantime I decided to have fun with the chord features (and then import the midi into logic). ALL that time ableton has been in my arsenal, from version 2 ish as a rewire slave. So stop being an unnecessary prick.

As far as bitshit, i have every right to bag it after all the lunacy that went on around the web about the wait for it and 500 page topics and people ready to "ditch ableton at a moment's notice" and all the constant talk that went on about it.. only for it to be released and the joke be on them. Once again, this is about product, bits and bytes, digital streams, and you guys turn it personal with insults. Oh, I'm 41, and rather intelligent to boot.

[re:dream]

Come on TTOZ, forget about Bitwig, here's a piece of software that really needs your attention...

[stringtapper]

…i got SICK, and was confined and PARALYSED, and could not sit in front of a midi keyboard…

Were you also unable to post on internet forums?

Is there any chance of a relapse?

[Machinesworking]

So stop being an unnecessary prick.

Honestly there wasn't a single insult in my post. poking fun at your vitriol? sure. You basically stated your history while excluding the level of anger you exhibit when a DAW fails in some capacity. That's fine, but you're completely missing my main point in bringing it up, you are emotional about DAWs and their shortcomings, as plainly shown in your KVR history. This wasn't done to insult you, (though I'm not that surprised you took it that way), but to explain to people calling you 13 years old that it's more about you being a bit over the top. You also rampaged against Reaper when it came out as well. Absolutely your right, but when you're consistent in your hyper critical posting style, then you shouldn't be surprised when people notice it.

As far as bitshit, i have every right to bag it after all the lunacy that went on around the web about the wait for it and 500 page topics and people ready to "ditch ableton at a moment's notice" and all the constant talk that went on about it.. only for it to be released and the joke be on them. Once again, this is about product, bits and bytes, digital streams, and you guys turn it personal with insults. Oh, I'm 41, and rather intelligent to boot.

Well that's not true entirely, you think it's a joke, there are plenty of people who think it's great. I'm actually with you on Bitwig for the most part, the lack of ReWire and the lack of controller support for 90% of the controllers out there unless you want to code in Java, and the CPU hit are all things that keep me in Live. To some those things aren't important and for them the features it has that Ableton doesn't are more important. Also, someone brought up Studio One in comparison, and the fact is Bitwig is about as buggy and feature poor as S1 was when it came out, three years after their company was formed. Today of course its better in some ways, but there's a reason you use Logic and I use DP, they have features we like, and why on earth would we want another traditional DAW along with our old school DAWs?
For me or you Bitwig or Studio One are obviously inferior, but that doesn't mean it won't change at some point.

I have to completely disagree with you about the built in plug ins, especially the synth, that thing is way better than the striped down AAS plug ins in Suite, which I have no use for owning the complete AAS bundle, and far superior to the complete lack of a synth in Live Standard. That alone gives Bitwig a huge plus, but like you I don't use many built in plug ins anyway.

I agree with you that the anticipation for Bitwig was retarded. The announcement of Bitwig Studio however did come at the same time that probably the buggiest release of Live came out, when Max 4 Live was integrated into Live 8. This is user error, I only upgrade to a new version of any software I use if I'm not doing any critical work and have no live shows coming up etc. So yeah a lot of Live users that were angry about 8 thought that Bitwig would be The Second Coming™, and of course a 1.0 release could never live up to that hype level.

Here's the kicker though, the one thing I think Bitwig have over Ableton big time is they're attempting to do everything in house so far. Live has sample libraries, Max 4 Live, the AAS instruments, other plug in instruments, licensed pitch/time algorithms etc. There's a lot of code in Live that is made by other programmers. They're all clever people for sure, but there's definitely more room for bugs in their model than Bitwigs. Mostly Bitwig stretch themselves with the three OS thing, but eventually it's very possible that their in house approach makes for long term stability that could be compared to the OS wars and one of the main talking points, that OSX running on dedicated hardware is less likely to have issues than Windows running on anything. Just like Microsoft though, Ableton have a lot of money and a bigger staff of people who do all they can to make it all run smoothly. I'm more of an impartial observer, and I will totally hound you if in a year Bitwig release ReWire, get a handle on CPU, offer a cross grade, and you start using it.

[re:dream]

to explain to people calling you 13 years old

that was a bit over the top, I apologize, TTOZ

Here's the kicker though, the one thing I think Bitwig have over Ableton big time is they're attempting to do everything in house so far. Live has sample libraries, Max 4 Live, the AAS instruments, other plug in instruments, licensed pitch/time algorithms etc. There's a lot of code in Live that is made by other programmers. They're all clever people for sure, but there's definitely more room for bugs in their model than Bitwigs. Mostly Bitwig stretch themselves with the three OS thing, but eventually it's very possible that their in house approach makes for long term stability that could be compared to the OS war and main talking point, that OSX running on dedicated hardware is less likely to have issues than Windows running on anything. Just like Microsoft though, Ableton have a lot of money and a bigger staff of people who do all they can top make it all run smoothly.

Very interesting point. If you are right, BW could end up doing quite well in the longer run...