Mastering question

[Tone Deft]

Well, if you're sitting at the desk where the song just was made and you have the option and ability to get the tune up to a standard volume level, then you should do it. With half an ounce of skill and the energy to put in the extra effort it makes the song sound better, not worse.

louder is perceved as sounding better, and yes, do your best.

That way when little Bobby Jo Jo makes a CD compilation of songs for his college buddy, your song won't plummet in volume level when it comes on - causing the stoned ex-dorm mate hit skip on the CD.

the Violent Femme's famous self-titled album is a classic blunder, it was master too low. still, I'd bet most forum members could recite the lyrics to most of the songs on that album.

This isn't an argument about good music versus bad music.

nope, just stopped to call bullshit on ChiDJ's post. or express my utter surprise that a DJ would actually make that call. omfg.

[leedsquietman]

radio compression will take care of it, they mostly use Orbans and unless the difference is about 4-5 dB RMS less, no volume adjustment will be needed. In fact, the quieter mix will probably sound better on the radio, it's a myth that it needs to be cut super hot for radio. The radio compressors crush the hell out of tracks and songs a couple of dB quieter than the typical reference won't be affected at all in loudness terms, and they won't suffer from the distortion of crushing something which is already hypercompressed and has nowhere to go.

As for the DJ situation. ChiDJ is probably right, minimal effort for maximum cash is the ethos of most DJs I know. Laziness is a common trait in most human's actually, (not just picking on DJs here) and lifting so much as a finger is beyond a lot of people, so twisting a knob or moving a slider, I mean, that's hard labour

Although ToneDeft has it right in that it SHOULD NOT matter. It is a simple operation and shouldn't affect things but given the lazyitis many suffer from it can become a problem.

I have The Cure's 'Disintegration' album from 1989 and that states 'mastered to be played loud, turn it up for enjoyment' and that album sounds great. And yes, it's about -15.5 dB RMS average, so it is quieter and needs more volume but when it sounds good, I don't care.

[monobeach]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... s-war.html



sorry, I couldn't resist

[jimmynitcher]

What level should the mix-down be prior to re-importing for limiting or is it not important?

[Tarekith]

I'd say -6dBFS is a good target.

[jimmynitcher]

nice one, thanks

[jimmynitcher]

..and if I'm using the Live compressor to limit I set the output to -0.2? (as per your excellent article).

- doesn't seem to make much improvement, fuller but not much in the way of volume.

Sorry to bug you but I really want to get a handle on this.

[Hidden Driveways]

I make a point of leaving a bit of "headroom" on the master. My approach is as unscientific as it gets. As far as how many dB to leave, or how much -dBv or +dBu or whatever, I have no idea. I simply look at the meter on the master channel and go beyond "making sure it doesn't go in the red." I used to think it was okay to let the master meter "tickle the red," but if you're doing a quick and dirty mastering job, you should leave more headroom than that.

What I do is keep an eye on the master meter the whole time I'm making a song. I try to keep its peak well below the red. I try to keep the master meter 3/4 of the way up. I keep it a good few segments below where it would be "tickling the red."

I've read lots of threads on this board over the years about the mixing process. There was a good one once where "going into the red" came up. The basic gist of the thread was that it is okay to go into the red on regular tracks, but the master should never go in the red. So, if you're going for a certain sound that requires driving a track into the red, that's fine, as long as you don't let the master overload into the red. It can be tricky. I'm not sure what the official word is on this, I don't think an official word exists, but, whether it's a good or bad practice to move the master's fader in order to keep it from going into the red, I don't know. But, I do move the master's slider down in order to retain my headroom on the master meter.

Maybe someday I should sit down and read Tarekith's mastering article. It's hard to do when you've got so many LOLCATS to look at, and things like that to do.

[leedsquietman]

-6dbFS as a per track limit, or a final master mix level ??

I personally think as a master mix level, that is too high. I think in some genres it's typical to come out at that level POST mastering but is not something to be encouraged.

I know there is finished mastered product that high in certain genres, (which is unnecessarily high IMHO and leaves no room for any kind of dynamics), but an unmastered mix that high really doesn't leave a Mastering Engineer very much to work with.

It's a complicated topic, because simpler tracks which are less dense, well produced and mixed and with fewer elements lend themselves better to being pumped up than a complex, multi element mix, where the whole frequency range is being used. There are times when under the above conditions, it won't even to be possible to pump your track up into the -7dB range without it sounding just like sonic crud. Listen to Metallica's latest album mastered to -5.5dB RMS. It just sounds like total garbage and that's not just the music, the actual sound quality is painful.


It is not unusual for dance music (which often has very little dynamics) or rap/hip hop to be up at -6 or -7dB RMS (although it still sounds better a couple of dBs less).

Then again, jazz, classical, blues and the like even in these days of loudness wars, rarely venture above -14dBFS. Around -11dB to -12dB usually sounds a good level on contemporary indie or rock and pop level, although they often get pumped 3 or more dB beyond this because of the loudness wars and then sound worse for it.

It's very hard to say what a typical good level is, but if the Mastering Engineer has to pump more than 4dB into the average level, then you can expect sonic degradation.

Loud and sonic fidelity do not go hand in hand. The more you have to compress and limit a track for loudness, the less room there is for the music to breathe, and everything just sounds like one long LOUD. Even in club music, they like the occasional quiet build up !!!!

[jimmynitcher]

Thanks

I really think it would be a useful exercise to understand how the Limiting can be achieved with the Live Compressor..

..if a mix is around the -6 mark and you send it into the compressor with inf ratio and the output at -0.2 with the threshold just giving the odd GR peak between -3 and -6 you end up with a master level around -3.

With most mixes out there being dead-on 0 how do you make up the extra?

I mean what control do you change? Obviously not the output of the comp as that is pre-set for a reason.

thanks for any elucidation

[blakbeltjonez]

there are a significant amount of "DJ's" out there that would be scared off by a tune that was a lot quieter than whatever else they play - anyone else with half an idea about gain structure and DJ mixers wouldn't be bothered so much by it, but it's astounding how many DJ's push the master level so loud that there's no way to go any louder with a track that has a lower RMS level. and of course, clipped output = more "energy", regardless of how bad it sounds.

you gotta leave yourself a little extra rope to hang yourself with - on most DJ mixers that use cheapie op amps and a single power rail driven by a wall wart power supply, more than a couple of bars of those red lights really do mean distortion... even the expensive ones seem to lack any real headroom.

[Tarekith]

Leeds, I'm talking about peak dBFS readings, not Rms, so I'm not understanding where you're coming from.

[Chang]

I got to third page and laughed so hard and at the same time sad. How people who can barely mix who desperately need a mastering engineer think they can master their own music is beyond belief. Nexxt thing you know people will be thinking they can land a boeing 747 because they are going to land it the way they think it should be landed (sound). Upside down into a building most of the time. This is ridiculous and undermines what a quality mastering engineer does. People think they put an L3 and a multiband compressor on your song and to going to get good sound? In the same bedroom you mixed song down in? totally ridiculous. Thinking you're going to master your own music even half way pro is as absurd as playing call of duty and thinking you can be dropped off in war zone and not get hurt because you are so good at call of duty xbox. Never have I read so much mindless bulshit on a thread on here. If you took this thread to gearslutz theyd have a field day with you. 1 million dollars worth of gear, golden ears, a 300 thousand dollar room but you think your going to do it all with a multiband comp in your bedroom. Not likely.

[Johnisfaster]

I got to third page and laughed so hard and at the same time sad. How people who can barely mix who desperately need a mastering engineer think they can master their own music is beyond belief. Nexxt thing you know people will be thinking they can land a boeing 747 because they are going to land it the way they think it should be landed (sound). Upside down into a building most of the time. This is ridiculous and undermines what a quality mastering engineer does. People think they put an L3 and a multiband compressor on your song and to going to get good sound? In the same bedroom you mixed song down in? totally ridiculous. Thinking you're going to master your own music even half way pro is as absurd as playing call of duty and thinking you can be dropped off in war zone and not get hurt because you are so good at call of duty xbox. Never have I read so much mindless bulshit on a thread on here. If you took this thread to gearslutz theyd have a field day with you.

hey thanks for the fantastic input there. it is silly that person might think they can mix better than a pro, sure. but it's way more silly to think people care when you rant and rave about it.

furthermore, all mixing and mastering engineers started with zero knowledge. who are you to say that any person in this thread doesn't have the ability to learn the needed skills to do the job well?

[pepezabala]

is there are place where you can listen to examples of good mastering ? Like an a to b comparison of a mix unmasterd and mastered?

I only once went to a mastering session and the guy had lots of pirated plug ins, talked lot of crap and the mix sounded worse after the session. This one surely wasn't a "pro" - but still I believe there is a lot of "Emperor's new clothes" going on with all this mastering talk.