Ableton vs Logic engine

[Tone Deft]

I just yesterday, removed pro tools 10/ 11 and cubase 6.5 / 7 from my computer. Trashed them.

I'm left with Logic X and Live suite 9. The most stable for me.

I was fed up with errors in pro tools (6101's) and cubase's slowness and unstableness.

IMO I always felt pro tools sounded better than the other 3 daws mentioned. Not interested in what other people think.

Anyway, enough people make quality records in Live, and thats what I'm choosing as my full time DAW.


SSL G series compressor / Live 9

PS I never listen to anyone's online opinion when it comes to music equipment.

There's more jealousy and snobbery in the music business than in the fashion industry.

that there's a country song.

[3dot...]

[mikb]

But if you're hearing a difference when it can be proven that there is not one, surely that only proves your own perception cannot be trusted and in that case, more likely in the wrong industry?

It only shows you haven't followed the discussion closely. You have proven nothing beyond the obvious, that I have not argued against. You need a reality check. In the real world everything, beside your fantasy set up test, is not being equal.

There are reasonably differing final results from using different DAWs, the work-flow being just one of them. It's very likely that high quality productions can be made both with Ableton Live and Logic, but the results will not be bit identical in a full production. Simply because on the detail level the producer will make different choices. Granted, with talent the results will be both very near sounding and hopefully equally good. And if it isn't the skill of the producer with the DAW in question is most likely the culprit.

I enjoy the discussion and learned new things, but the tendency in this thread to make or take straw man arguments instead of debating what is actually being written is bordering on lunacy.

[fishmonkey]

your (obvious) logic goes around in circles...

[mikb]

your (obvious) logic goes around in circles...

I guess this sums up your ability to comprehend the english language very neatly.

There's no circle. Your are just choosing to think you can decide what the interpretation of the subject of this thread really is. You cannot.

[mikb]

your (obvious) logic goes around in circles...

So just what part of "the results will be both very near sounding and hopefully equally good. And if it isn't the skill of the producer with the DAW in question is most likely the culprit" is it that mr wise guy fishmonkey have a problem comprehending?

[mikb]

Fishmonkey, the more fruitful way of discussing audio is to acknowledge what you (ie the parties debating) agree on when that is quite clear and what you're disagreeing on, instead of simply disagreeing with the straw man argument you make up yourself as you couldn't be bothered to understand what others are actually writing. Also if things are not clear one can ask for clarification instead of engaging in a free fantasy of what the other contributors are saying.

If you had presented any facts or specific viewpoints just now, I'd have to ask you for clarification as I have no idea what's your beef here?

But there are none you choose to focus on here. Are there any facts coming? Viewpoints?

[mikb]

I guess its a pretty common question in the industry world and I feel that Logic audio engine sounds so much better than Ableton
Im always producing track in Ableton and rewiring it to Logic where I mixing it. Sounds better.

The above is what Spjuver wrote originally. There's nothing limiting the subject — as unfitting as "Audio Engine" as a term may be — to audio tracks. He refers to "track" as in the track or song with everything a DAW has on offer implied and saying he thinks he get better mastering (well, as in final) results with Logic. That's my interpretation of it and I think it's way more correct than the interpretations of you clinical test propagandists that got the first 2 pages in this discussion. Only Spjuver knows exactly what he meant of course. Care to correct me Spjuver? After all you opened this debate. Own it.

Now, when you do a master do just sum audio tracks or do you do signal processing? I do the latter. What do you do?

Also, when you work with a master mix (or preparing to hand it over for) with Logic and when you work like that with Live, do you actually engage in the exact replication of your idea of what the production should sound like, carefully adjusting the effects, compressors, EQs and so on, to be bit level exactly what you hear in your head? If so, I want you on my team.

Or do you like me, go trough a work flow involving focused listening with adjustments where you are influenced of what you're hearing as well as from how the GUI and other practicalities until you reach that golden moment you seek?

If you do it like that, how likely is it that your results would be bit identical had you done it in some other DAW? I think quite unlikely. Arguably equally good yes (if you're skilled in both DAWs).

This is the real world. It's subjective and scary and I love it!

[fishmonkey]

if anyone is having trouble comprehending the flow of this thread, and if there is a propagandist here, it's you.

you've disagreed with just about everything everyone has said, including when their ideas have been more or less the same as yours.

if you work differently using different DAWs then things will most likely sound different. no shit.

nobody has disagreed with that very obvious idea, yet you keep banging on about it like nobody gets it but you.

subjective is not scary, it's the nature of our existence.

[mikb]

if anyone is having trouble comprehending the flow of this thread, and if there is a propagandist here, it's you.

you've disagreed with just about everything everyone has said, including when their ideas have been more or less the same as yours..

I have agreed with correct statements like everything or close to everything involving audio summing. The rest is based on your and some others incomplete interpretation of the subject.

Also, you choose again to attack me personally with pointless statements instead of presenting your actual views or any facts relevant for the subject. That just indicates how little you have to show for it.

I'm not interested in arguing. I am interested in correct analysis about audio and music production. Clearly you're not.

[mikb]

if you work differently using different DAWs then things will most likely sound different. no shit.
nobody has disagreed with that very obvious idea, yet you keep banging on about it like nobody gets it but you.

So why pretend the clinical audio summing test is representing the real world situation that Spjuver clearly was addressing when opening this thread? It's not!
Of course had Spjuver said he did nothing but move the audio to Logic where it miraculously sounded better even though nothing was added, like  — I don't know mastering plugs perhaps?— the audio summing argument would hold. But that's not what was written.

It's so easy to say: "Yes I agree with that, BUT.....

Let me start:

Yes, I agree the audio summing of otherwise unaffected tracks is likely to be bit identical and also equally as good sounding in both Ableton Live 9 and Logic Pro X.

But I do disagree this means those DAWs will reliably produce identically sounding productions with the same source material and producer.

[fishmonkey]

But I do disagree this means those DAWs will reliably produce identically sounding productions with the same source material and producer.

i'll say it one more time. pretty much everyone in this thread so far has more or less agreed with that premise. comprehension failure on your part.

and while we are on the topic of summing, there are some very experienced and successful mix engineers who truly believe that analog summing is clearly superior to summing in the box. and then again there are some very experienced and successful mix engineers who truly don't believe it.

[mikb]

i'll say it one more time. pretty much everyone in this thread so far has more or less agreed with that premise. comprehension failure on your part.

Disagreeing with the false premise of discussion is not failure of comprehension. The premise was incomplete in my opinion failing to address the reality of the OP, thus not being helpful.
Just as you're not the least helpful for the case of the OP nor the discussion at large.

Saying "You must be wrong" to the OP — which sums up as far the responses addressed the specific situation — is neither helpful nor is it a correct statement. The OP might be mistaken that Logic sounds better, but the interesting fact would be from where this perception came in the actual situation the OP referred to. It's very possible something was done by the OP in Logic or otherwise during the process — affecting the sound — that would make the final output sound better and that such a process could be repeated in Live if the OP knew what actually happened. So far no such help to analyze the actual situation have been offered.

The summing discussion and other facts were most likely very helpful for the general understanding of so called "audio engines" and digital audio in particular, but it didn't address the complete situation as hinted to by the OP.

If you were not so full of yourself then just maybe you could muster the insight needed to be truly helpful instead of being a smart ass and defend the unnecessary derogatory ironic comments that predates my input into this discussion. I know you didn't defend these specifically, but they are what I reacted to by refocusing the issue.

[re:dream]

[Sage]

But if you're hearing a difference when it can be proven that there is not one, surely that only proves your own perception cannot be trusted and in that case, more likely in the wrong industry?

It only shows you haven't followed the discussion closely. You have proven nothing beyond the obvious, that I have not argued against. You need a reality check. In the real world everything, beside your fantasy set up test, is not being equal.

There are reasonably differing final results from using different DAWs, the work-flow being just one of them. It's very likely that high quality productions can be made both with Ableton Live and Logic, but the results will not be bit identical in a full production. Simply because on the detail level the producer will make different choices. Granted, with talent the results will be both very near sounding and hopefully equally good. And if it isn't the skill of the producer with the DAW in question is most likely the culprit.

I enjoy the discussion and learned new things, but the tendency in this thread to make or take straw man arguments instead of debating what is actually being written is bordering on lunacy.

Actually, it is pretty clear you haven't followed this thread at all.

No one has ever argued that plugins, workflow etc will yield different results, which a number of people, including myself have already stated. In fact, if you were to repeat a song in the same DAW a number of times, you'd get different results each time as you'd make different decisions.

You're just reiterating a point already made multiple times and adding nothing new. I use multiple DAWs personally and I think people would be hard pushed to recognise what ones have been used. Actually, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNUGEJ4GFqQ - Tell me what DAW this was mixed and mastered in and how you can recognise that DAW.