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Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:25 pm
by ethios4
The human voice is the only real instrument. Everything else is cheating. If you want drums, beat on your chest, clap your hands, stomp your feet FFS!
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:31 pm
by TRS80
Shillelagh Law wrote:TRS80 wrote:My grandmother had a little electric organ where you could press these buttons and get automatic chords. To go along with it there was a book that told you which button to press to make nice progressions. I took piano lessons but I still loved that shit. Our family had a lot of good fun with it too.
I spent a long time learning to mix two pieces of vinyl together. Now it can be done with a button press. You can even use software to tell you what two pieces will best mesh chromatically. I love this shit.
I've been a drummer since I was six, now you have drum machines and loop libraries. Great stuff!
Photography was viewed as sacrilege by certain painters when it was introduced.
Electricity was viewed by some as evil when it was introduced.
The point is, ALL of this stuff is technology, and the progressions are only a matter of degree.
If you use software like Live, and you have a "problem" with something like the Schwarzonator, you're a big fat hypocrite. We need to get past the "burn her as a witch!" mentality.
Craftsmen who work by "hand" have not vanished, but their ranks have been decimated, leaving only the most talented ones standing. Studio drummers are still around, just not as many of them, and the ones that do work are amazing. A person can piss and moan about new technology that competes with their learned skills, but it amounts to an insignificant whine as Darwin's theory pushes forward. A schoolboy, when he is confused and mad, usually says something like "you're stupid." What a worthless waste of time and energy.
It's a myth that creative types are all liberals: many of them are conservative, close minded, judgmental, angry campers. Many of them feel entitled and are resistant to changes in the status quo. Keep in mind, in the end, people will either find value in your creations or not. They will not analyze your method. As technology makes certain skills automatic, other sets of skills will emerge that differentiate the wheat from the chaff.
some lame analogies up in this.
besides - drum machines have to be programmed, and people who think the schwarzonator is stupid probably don't use prefabricated loops either.
I'm all for discussion. Feel free to pick it apart, perhaps with a bit more depth than "lame."
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:47 pm
by Shillelagh Law
TRS80 wrote:Shillelagh Law wrote:TRS80 wrote:My grandmother had a little electric organ where you could press these buttons and get automatic chords. To go along with it there was a book that told you which button to press to make nice progressions. I took piano lessons but I still loved that shit. Our family had a lot of good fun with it too.
I spent a long time learning to mix two pieces of vinyl together. Now it can be done with a button press. You can even use software to tell you what two pieces will best mesh chromatically. I love this shit.
I've been a drummer since I was six, now you have drum machines and loop libraries. Great stuff!
Photography was viewed as sacrilege by certain painters when it was introduced.
Electricity was viewed by some as evil when it was introduced.
The point is, ALL of this stuff is technology, and the progressions are only a matter of degree.
If you use software like Live, and you have a "problem" with something like the Schwarzonator, you're a big fat hypocrite. We need to get past the "burn her as a witch!" mentality.
Craftsmen who work by "hand" have not vanished, but their ranks have been decimated, leaving only the most talented ones standing. Studio drummers are still around, just not as many of them, and the ones that do work are amazing. A person can piss and moan about new technology that competes with their learned skills, but it amounts to an insignificant whine as Darwin's theory pushes forward. A schoolboy, when he is confused and mad, usually says something like "you're stupid." What a worthless waste of time and energy.
It's a myth that creative types are all liberals: many of them are conservative, close minded, judgmental, angry campers. Many of them feel entitled and are resistant to changes in the status quo. Keep in mind, in the end, people will either find value in your creations or not. They will not analyze your method. As technology makes certain skills automatic, other sets of skills will emerge that differentiate the wheat from the chaff.
some lame analogies up in this.
besides - drum machines have to be programmed, and people who think the schwarzonator is stupid probably don't use prefabricated loops either.
I'm all for waffling. Feel free to pick it apart, perhaps with a bit more depth than "lame."
Thanks but no thanks. The lamest bits are in bold.
Funny you mention Darwin though. He talked about natural selection. Are you sure you understand what that's about ? He defines it as "the principle by which each slight variation [of a trait],
if useful, is preserved"
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:05 pm
by TRS80
Regarding Darwin; if technological advancements are useful, they will be adopted. So, if people find something like the Schwarsonator useful, they will adopt it. That analogy seems valid enough to me.
I just find that some people have an emotional reaction to new technology that is more about them feeling threatened than to do with the usefulness of the iteration.
My initial reaction to criticism of something like the Schwarzonator is- if it is so horrible, prove it. Prove to me why it's appalling to you. Demonstrate how your particular skills are so much superior. I can sympathize how the advanced music theorist may be insulted by things like this. But I also like to add that any knowledge a person has is valuable, and can be used to implement technology with more deft.
I've seen this argument many times in DJ forums about automatically matching beats. And it's meaningless. As much as many DJs have screamed in the past years about it- look at the state of DJing in general today. Controllerism is taking over, it's where the interesting stuff is happening. So, in general, I'm all for getting with new developments rahter than attacking them. That really is all I am saying. It's an emotional subject for many, so I will just stop right here.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:11 pm
by Shillelagh Law
Darwin's theory of NATURAL selection. I didn't think it would need further explaining, but if you don't exercise a muscle it will waste. If you use anti-biotics to treat common ailments, your immune system will get weaker. And so on.
Invoking Darwin to bolster your waffle is piss-poor mate.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:13 pm
by Tone Deft
TRS80 wrote:My initial reaction to criticism of something like the Schwarzonator is...
...that some guy made the device, made a video for it and is sharing it with the world. then some twat makes a thread crapping all over his project. flame the shit out of cacti.
the scale plug in and arpeggiator have been around for a long time. anyone that's shocked by this device doesn't see the big picture. the anti-technology debate is kinda interesting. use it or don't, who cares. some of you should play with a Korg Karma sometime, they practically play themselves.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:19 pm
by TRS80
Ugh. Of course I realize Darwin's theory is about NATURAL selection. I am appropriating a theory from one area and applying it to another.
I simply support coders and creators who make cool shit for me to play with. I'm very thankful for them, and don't think it makes ANY sense for people who use music software to bash them. It makes no sense.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:23 pm
by Emissary
Whether this is cheating or not is irrelevant, it sounds fucking awful, like a lame duck waddling over a keyboard that only has 8 notes all in the same scale. Waste of fucking time. But it will be good for the youtube videos for some background wankery noise to go over their egotistical ranting.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:28 pm
by TRS80
Don't be hatin'.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:38 pm
by Shillelagh Law
TRS80 wrote:Ugh. Of course I realize Darwin's theory is about NATURAL selection. I am appropriating a theory from one area and applying it to another.
yes - and like I said it's a piss-poor analogy which seems to indicate you don't fully comprehend what Darwin's theory is actually all about. Using technology in lieu of NATURAL abilities renders those abilities weaker. etc etc.
TRS80 wrote:
I simply support coders and creators who make cool shit for me to play with. I'm very thankful for them, and don't think it makes ANY sense for people who use music software to bash them. It makes no sense.
yep - making doodads for people to play with is nice. I think we all agree on that. But there's absolutely no harm in people saying "that's actually a bit naff because.."
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:09 pm
by stringtapper
TRS80 wrote:I can sympathize how the advanced music theorist may be insulted by things like this.
That's me and I'm not insulted at all. I personally don't find it very useful as it is; it would just get in my way as far as performing is concerned. However I could see making a simple front end for it like a note randomizer; maybe fed to a pad for some evolving ambient backgrounds.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:31 pm
by ethios4
To me, an interesting application of this would be something along the lines of having people in the audience participate in the music making (either through iphones/touchOSC, or actually coming up on stage to mess around), and it's all in key. Basically allowing non-musicians or people with limited knowledge to participate in improv.
Another application would be to use the iCubeX system to generate MIDI notes from a gyroscope or something, and use the Schwarzonator to ensure it follows the changes.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:44 pm
by TRS80
Although I'm not at all in love with my Darwinian analogy, I feel I am just unable to make the analogy clear. The evolution of technology can be compared to Darwin's theory of evolution in that a trait can develop (in respect that others are rejected) according to its usefulness, just as technology can evolve certain tools (and do away with others) based on their usefulness.
Nothing much more than that, and maybe it's a horrid analogy, and maybe I have no understanding of Darwin whatsoever. I feel like my bigger point is getting lost in these pickings, I feel the water at my nose, I feel like I'm being called stupid, and I realize the futility of this argument.
I agree there's no harm in anyone criticizing anything, really. I've never played the Schwarzonator so I don't know if it's shit or not. But I did watch him demo it in the youtube vid, and was charmed by his enthusiasm and talents. And I do like the idea of teaching computers how to think, or how to suggest one logical thing after the other.
Well, I am feeling silly for getting so much into this thread, and did not intend to incur the wrath of anyone any more than the creator of this doo-dad got bitch slapped by comments in this thread. I still can think it nothing but hypocritical to shun someone's attempt to automate music, when using a program, Live, which automates so much of the creation process. Does Live automate performance "better" than say, the Glenn Miller Orchestra performs? No, but DAWs are still great. I like the way my DrumKat triggers chords and arpeggios, but I don't think it does it with greater ability and finesse than an accomplished pianist. I didn't expect to start feeling like a stupid dork about it all.
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:48 pm
by Shillelagh Law
cacti wrote:for some reason i find it really appealing
fixed ?
Re: The Schwarzonator is stupid
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:54 pm
by adventurepants_
Bluegrass Controversy!
The Carter Family used presets! (Check the Autoharp)
