Ableton Forum

Tarekith wrote:Can you guys both take this elsewhere, PM's or something? Would be nice to have one thread that didn't dissolve into this kind of thing.

yeah yeah yeah, leave the money making thread alone.

you too could have sent PMs.

PMSL Tarekith said I should I change my poll in a thread I created about mastering and he didn't even have the courtesy to vote when I did hahaa

Tarekith wrote:- There's cheaper options now. In the past mastering meant about $1000 per CD to have done, and it still is that price (rightly so) at the larger mastering facilities. But lately there's certainly a lot more budget options available to people as well, some good, some bad true, but at least the playing field has opened up some. In the past it certainly didn't make sense for an artist to spend $1000 on a 500-1000 copy release where they might only see $400 in profit. Now there's other options out there.

i don't mean any disrespect, not knowing your work, but as it has been mentioned a few times that this is an advertisement thread in a way:
Where do you see yourself in the picture you draw there?
Cause at first 1000$ sounds like big money, but then when I klick your sig link it says 80$/track no discounts for the non-demo-type mastering. Judging from the my CDs trackcount you're well above the larger mastering facilities' prices you mention, so rather part of the more expensive option rather than the cheaper options you menion?

Rave wrote:PMSL Tarekith said I should I change my poll in a thread I created about mastering and he didn't even have the courtesy to vote when I did hahaa

No offense, I didn't see the thread again this morning when scanning the forums for new posts. Besides, I already stated in this one that IMO it's still about 50/50.

yeah yeah yeah then why suggest a breakdown. Surely 50/50 = Yes and NO being the same amount of votes hehe

Rave wrote: yeah yeah yeah

just name it mac vs. pc and you will have in no time the highest hit count

If I am sending songs to people that aren't friends I get them mastered.

Like Head & Shoulders shampoo, you only have one chance to make a first impression

tamtam wrote:i don't mean any disrespect, not knowing your work, but as it has been mentioned a few times that this is an advertisement thread in a way:
Where do you see yourself in the picture you draw there?
Cause at first 1000$ sounds like big money, but then when I klick your sig link it says 80$/track no discounts for the non-demo-type mastering. Judging from the my CDs trackcount you're well above the larger mastering facilities' prices you mention, so rather part of the more expensive option rather than the cheaper options you menion?

95% of my business is still people doing the $40/track mastering, which I call demo mastering since it's mainly one off singles. The labels and individuals that use my services to prep CDs and submit DDPs to replication houses are generally doing larger runs of CDs, 5000+, so their investment in the project is already high. In situations like this, I'm the final Quality Assurance check, once it leaves my hands the client trusts that everything is 100% completely perfect on all fronts, which means I have to spend a LOT of time on the product. If it gets replicated with some type of error on my end, they don't get their replication money back, so they're paying me the added fee to make damn sure that doesn't happen. The extra cost goes into the QA aspects (as well as CD prep, PQ sheets, DDP checks, ISRC inserts, CD text, etc) more than the actual audio mastering, which is done more or less the same as the demo mastering.

That said, there's nothing stopping people from getting the cheaper demo mastering and proofing it on their own, then sending the tracks to someplace like Discmakers to have the CD duplicated. For shorter runs, this is definitely still a cheaper option for them. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm giving people paying $40 a track the same treatment as those paying $80 in terms of track by track adjustments (leveling, EQ, etc). The added cost for the higher mastering covers what I have to do on top of the actual audio treatment, the things needed to prep a completed CD.

it's like herding cats in here.


Tarekith - do you send the full .als file back to people so they can see what you did to their track? could that end up in teaching your clients what you do, possibly leading to one less customer? I wrote that I might get a song mastered just to see how they'd do it. that would be better than any book.

I should send you a song that's impossible to master!! could there be one?

Tarekith - do you send the full .als file back to people so they can see what you did to their track? could that end up in teaching your clients what you do, possibly leading to one less customer? I wrote that I might get a song mastered just to see how they'd do it. that would be better than any book.

>>> I don't master in Live, I use Wave Editor mainly, sometimes Logic depending on what I need to do. Occasionally people will ask me to send them screenshots of my EQ or compressor settings, and I'm happy to do it if they ask. When I do mixdowns for people, I always send them back the ALS or Logic file, depending on their preference. It limits what plug ins I can use since I have to stick with each apps native plug ins, but it's not a huge deal usually. I do one on one production training too, and in that case the artist will send me the project file at various stages of the process asking me how I'd improve things. As long as they are on the most current version of the DAW, it's easy to trade ALS files back and forth then.

Just like some people use me to master their songs to they can learn their studios acoustic issues, other people ask me for mixdowns so they can see what i would do with the project file. They're less concerned with the final stereo mixdown file than they are with the project file and seeing what I actually did. Same amount of work for me, so I don't care either way.

Sigh, so much for this NOT being an advertising thread, which was truly NOT my intention. <<<

I should send you a song that's impossible to master!! could there be one?

>>> Sure, I've gotten some songs that were just so badly over-limited already that there was nothing I could really do to them. I'll discuss with the artist how they can possibly fix the issue and resend it to me, but sometimes there's no option to go back and fix the issues. Had one guy send me a track made in Reason where he accidentally put a distortion on the master turned to 11, and wanted me to remove the distortion "in the mastering". Not possible given how bad it was, and he had deleted the Reason file on top of things. No idea why someone would do that, but I've had all sorts of crazy requests. <<<

i was just asking because with the "$400 in profit"-example you gave I still make a loss with demo mastering @ your place with 13 tracks on my cd wich doesn't sound so much to me.

Tarekith wrote: If it gets replicated with some type of error on my end, they don't get their replication money back, so they're paying me the added fee to make damn sure that doesn't happen.

Does that mean you're responsible for replication errors then? I mean financially? Cause in the non-music-jobs I know, money goes to the people with actual responsibility regarding money decisions.

no worries Tarekith. for all you've put into the community IMO advertise all you want, or just talk shop. I don't think anyone would mind.

one thing that's driven me batty is not being able to get other peoples' songs out of my head. you listen to a song over and over while tweaking it and the hook just will not GO AWAY!! months and months later it's still in there! AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

i was just asking because with the "$400 in profit"-example you gave I still make a loss with demo mastering @ your place with 13 tracks on my cd wich doesn't sound so much to me.

>>> The $400 in profit example I gave before was meant largely for artists who get a single track or EP signed, sorry if I confused the issue. Certainly once you start talking about something like a 13 track CD, then all the costs are going to increase by quite a bit, not just the mastering. At that point people either better have a solid plan to make that money back, or take it as a loss in exchange for any promotion it might bring them. If you only make $400 on a full length CD, then likely a lot of things went wrong along the way, or you jumped the gun with your expectations. <<<

Does that mean you're responsible for replication errors then? I mean financially? Cause in the non-music-jobs I know, money goes to the people with actual responsibility regarding money decisions.

>>>No, I meant errors that were in my control, like a poorly done fade, incorrect track order, a missed click or pop, things like that. If the replication plant makes and error, then obviously it's their fault and their responsibility. But if I send them a DDP with an error in it that "I" missed, then the ball is in my court. One reason I insist the labels/artist are sent a proof and responsible for listening and buying off on it too. <<<

40 dollars per track for demo mastering is a very competitive rate and most of the bigger studios with better reputations charge around 99 per 4 minute song (around 120 for a 6 minute track) and may offer a discount of around 10% if you send more than 8 tracks etc, this is usually performed by a capable engineer but not the likes of Bob Ludwig, Doug Sax, Ted Jensen, Bob Katz etc, their reputations means they cost 3-4 times that amount plus they often work on a 'time' basis only, meaning that the cost can often run to 6 or 7 times this amount. Then, it's quite possible you may not enjoy where they took the mix - which is why it's important that you know in advance that they will do a free sample for you and allow at least 1 or 2 modifications if you don't like their work.

A lot of what you see advertised in music magazines at $400 or less for mastering is pretty much a very quick software only mastering, and a certain ratio of this are cowboys who are just going to do a lo-cut filter, boost the air and throw a limiter preset on to it to boost the level - minimal input for maximum gain in some cases.

I don't believe Tarekith is fishing for compliments or business here. I think his reputation is already well enough established on this forum and he has the testimonials to back up his work. I was also interested and surprised a little in the results in the poll. Mastering is something I find very interesting and I have done courses myself, for any one out there who has a bit of knowledge on mixing and engineering, I highly recommend you read Bob Katz's book 'Mastering Audio : The Art and The Science' (2nd edition) Focal Press 2008. This is a complex but really interesting read into the whole process and even if you always plan on using a mastering engineer and never approaching this yourself, it's really educational and you will learn a lot.

Would you guys refuse to master a track if it doesn't fit with your taste in music? A track you really hate listening to prolly won't be the best idea coz you just want to get rid off it? Would you have your own tracks mastered from so. who does totally different music or is one's personal taste not involved at all?