Ableton Forum

Most people treat music like background noise. They don't analyse it and they don't get into it. Thats my beef with a lot of mainstream music around today.

toneroll wrote: Who ever is not a sell out , can not sell their music .. simple as that.

You just don't get it do you?
So with that logic, only the biggest groups are worthy of praise, and anybody who stays on a smaller label for purposes of creative freedom is silly. Technical skill and marketability are all that matter. Seriously, do you only buy music from the major labels? I would have died of boredom years ago if I only listened to bands on major labels.
This question of what a sell out is or is not, is much more interesting to me than BT's worth as an artist. My stance is he's a great engineer, and a terrible artist, what he produces is technically brilliant bad art, a fast food product for easy consumption basically.

You can't sell out if you are writing and playing music that presents itself as purely ego driven entertainment, with no hard edge at all. Somebody making four on the floor disco with a young female or male singing sexually over it about relationships cannot sell out.

Now if that same group is writing about US foreign policy, quoting passages from the Satanic bible, the lady was detailing her sexual encounter with a transvestite, the music is not in 4/4, their songs are all 30 seconds long, and have either no changes in them, or 8+, they openly bash certain corporations for their behavior, advocate the overthrow of the government they live in, are openly gay, the lyrics are cryptic and don't repeat themselves, then they would have something to sell out, something a large label will want you to "tone down". Beyond those extremes, if you have ideals, and you compromise them for money, you are a sell out, period. Be happy with it, go to the mall, eat at McDonalds, drink your Starbucks coffee, and be happy that you are in the majority, but don't try to justify yourself by denying that your ass is laminated with corporate jizz.
Basically music is art, but music is also a product, so if you're a graphics artist who's making cash designing commercials, and try to say that Dali or Van Gough are passe, well then you're not too bright now are you?
If it bothers you that somebody else doesn't have the same taste in music you do, then my guess is you don't really like the music you listen to either. You just want other people to like what you do, so you go for what is most popular. McDonalds is such a great analogy for this, if you think the most popular restaurant is the best, then McDonalds is #1.
(toneroll, realize I'm just going off of your words, nothing personal, it's just discussion of ideas you know? Your post just makes me think of the bigger picture here.)

Machine, you echo my thoughts like Nagasaki echoed Hiroshima.

toneroll wrote:no way mate, BT uses all sorts of stuff hes fu"£$%^in well in to making his own sounds , he uses kymaand all sorts of synths, hates MIDI, and knows MUSIC , wow fancy that , this guy actually knows how to orchestrate ,

I'll tell you what i personally haven't ever sat down and listened to Bt all night but one night i will , just for educational purposes,

wow, thats really sad then, your saying he waste his time using a kyma system to make sounds that sound like cliche synth presets you'd get off a groovebox. you mean he's squandered that peabody education to write tunes composed exclusively of predicable trancey synthlines and snare crescendos? that all that talent has made him release songs in 2004 that sound exactly like bad crystal method tunes from 1996?

why dont you just say what you really feel? (this statment is supposed to be sarcastic).

seems like your so worked up about this nonsense that you cant even read anyomore.

you cant be going off my post and not judgin me personally..
coz 1. you havnt got a bleedin clue what i listen to and who i pay for those "rights" , dont automatically assume i even listen to anything "4/4" or "popular" , coz i dint tell you what i listen 2..
i do how ever listen to some music that is deffinalty commercial. maybe more than BT .. and i also listen to al lot of no so commercial "shit" granted it might not go on about ; corperation bashin, US foreign policy, trannies ( ) . etc but it doesnt sell that well ( if this is how YOU might judge "art" ) but they aint exaclty mainstream.....

to give you an idea ( in case youd like to hear ) the last few albums ive bought have been off ninjatune who havn't had top 40 hit since they founded (alright just one - mr scruf) and to me the artist's on this label are well and truely artists ... just coz they arnt screwin a fuckin sonic screwdriver thru yer ears , like a lot of people makin really experimental stuff , doesnt mean its no good or not worthy praise.. and yeah maybe some is ego fuckin driven , whats not ego driven???? if freud had his way the bone on YOU get when aphex twin is ripping your speakers apart is ego driven.

toneroll wrote:

Who ever is not a sell out , can not sell their music .. simple as that.

heres a translation for angry bastard machinesworkin:

If you happen to make music that a lot of people want to buy, you can sell it, if not , you cant .. so stop presumin shit and coming back with a massive display of intalect and "your ass is lamented with coprerate jizz"
and talk of mcdonalds (which i had today ... so what , whats it to you dick head?)

i never started singing the praises of commercial music, but whats wrong with making music that a majority of people want (as well)? in the top forty weve had a shit load of absolutley brilliant people.

toneroll wrote:yeh sweet jesus you sound like a punk ass bitch with your "blah blah blah " i am BT's peer ------->>> BOLLOCKS!

read my post i said judge him PERSONALLY ......you tit.

gee mate, the punkass live thing was meant to show the tongue in cheek nature of this whole thread. . .

and by the way, if i was a tit i would be at home playing with myself all day...

the real trick is to sell 6 billion copies without selling out.

Machinesworking wrote:

toneroll wrote: Who ever is not a sell out , can not sell their music .. simple as that.

You just don't get it do you?
So with that logic, only the biggest groups are worthy of praise, and anybody who stays on a smaller label for purposes of creative freedom is silly. Technical skill and marketability are all that matter. Seriously, do you only buy music from the major labels? I would have died of boredom years ago if I only listened to bands on major labels.
This question of what a sell out is or is not, is much more interesting to me than BT's worth as an artist. My stance is he's a great engineer, and a terrible artist, what he produces is technically brilliant bad art, a fast food product for easy consumption basically.

I think that pretty much says it all really don't you
Well it speaks volumes to me anyway and pretty much is on the money from where I sit/stand etc etc .....

sorry sweetjesus , just sounded like you were being patronising..

my whole point is this,

there is nothing at all wrong with music that is just that , MUSIC , when you listen to it you want to dance or make it yourself, or laugh , or cry or something.

money should really have nothing to do with its merit.

toneroll wrote:sorry sweetjesus , just sounded like you were being patronising..

All good man! You guys have given me some fun reading on this thread while I'm stuck in a non english speaking country.

I'm gonna dig this thread up in just under a year from now. There's a little easter egg in there.

toneroll wrote:my whole point is this,

there is nothing at all wrong with music that is just that , MUSIC , when you listen to it you want to dance or make it yourself, or laugh , or cry or something.

money should really have nothing to do with its merit.

No one here has said otherwise, we just expressed opinions that BT makes shit music. We're not judging him because he doesn't criticise the president, we're not judging him because he's not trying to solve the Kennedy assasination, people are judging him by what he produces, which is in my opinion shit music.

Now this comes from a guy who likes Crystal Method.

I like all those artists on Ninja Tune, and Amon Tobin is a personal hero of mine. What he does with his sounds is amazing! Aphex Twin .. well I love his stuff, but lately I'm getting bored with it.

Boards of Canada, Autechre. Another two groups I like. All these groups, to my mind, make interesting sounds. I really like them.

Do I condemn them because they're not speaking out against what I percieve as injustices? Er.. no. I like them for music's sake.

But on the other hand I love bands like Tool, A Perfect Circle, System of a Down, Cradle of Filth, Mudvayne and My Dying Bride - just the kind of bands that DO comment on injustices around the world.

I've got totally different types of affection for these groups that I do with the others. And there are so many other bands and songs to add to both groups.

My point is that we're not judging BT for what he doesn't say. We're judging his sounds. His sounds in my opinion are no where near as interesting as any of the groups I've listed, and there are thousands more I could list too.

But this is all conjecture anyway, because its a subjective discussion. I just hate it when people try to talk like authorities on these kind of things.

i think BT looks a lot like kato kaelin...you know, that guy who REALLY killed OJ's ugly wife and that hipster...

as for BT's music...i think it's pretty cheesy, but i understand all that went into making it cheesy...he's a studio whiz-kid. he's one of those rare guys who has all the money and top-ntch gear and computers and actually MAKES music instead of getting caught up in the technology of it all.

=) happy new year, btw.
peas to u all.

oh, and a fish sammich sounds pretty good about right now...i just spent 3 hours with my hands and arms in my aquarium cleaning the fucker.

toneroll wrote: you cant be going off my post and not judgin me personally..
coz 1. you havnt got a bleedin clue what i listen to and who i pay for those "rights" , dont automatically assume i even listen to anything "4/4" or "popular" , coz i dint tell you what i listen 2..

THAT is exactly WHY I was going of what you wrote and not judging you personally, because I do not know you, I know what you write, duh?

toneroll wrote: heres a translation for angry bastard machinesworkin:

If you happen to make music that a lot of people want to buy, you can sell it, if not , you cant .. so stop presumin shit and coming back with a massive display of intalect and "your ass is lamented with coprerate jizz"
and talk of mcdonalds (which i had today ... so what , whats it to you dick head?)

i never started singing the praises of commercial music, but whats wrong with making music that a majority of people want (as well)? in the top forty weve had a shit load of absolutley brilliant people.

Case closed, you couldn't possibly sell out yourself, because you like pop music, McDonalds, and say Aphex twin, (who I personally don't really listen to), is ripping your speakers apart, while proclaiming that the top 40 has some "absolutely brilliant people".
You are, and have been in this thread singing the praises of commercial music, but like most people that listen primarily to traditional music styles, (this includes dance music), you think everything else is trying to be different, when pop is actually trying to be the same.
Consider this, bands on major labels are asked consistently to get to the meat of the song within 30 seconds, the chorus has to break in that time span, the reason is people expect it to, so they follow suite. It's tradition, people like what is comfortable, but musicians don't always want to play music by formula, and if they decide to for reasons of money, then they are sell outs, period. I think what bothers you is that you like some bands that easily fit into this category, but really 90% of the people out there eat at McDonalds, just not all the time. I don't expect that any musician could survive with a diet of just top 40, ( just like a diet of McDonalds only would kill you! ) but after listening to somebody twist around your ideas of what music is, sometimes bubble gum is a nice break I agree, but it's still bubble gum.
That was one of the big let downs from visiting London last year, McDonalds everywhere. I really didn't see any "english" restaurants to speak of. American and indian food only, pretty much.

bencodec wrote: wow, thats really sad then, your saying he waste his time using a kyma system to make sounds that sound like cliche synth presets you'd get off a groovebox. you mean he's squandered that peabody education to write tunes composed exclusively of predicable trancey synthlines and snare crescendos?

frickin hilarious.

special ed-

you thought it was cool that BT writes film scores (not soundtracks) but hates the fact that he works with N'Sync.

i am confused/....which more closely resembled something in the Canon of High Art--Fast and the Furious or "Pop"