Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

[Buleriachk]

I'm outta here. Read the Wiki again.....
Life is hard... but short....

[TomViolenz]

Edit: And just to answer your wondering, yes there is a history where in another thread I criticized him on a theory mistake he made, staying very polite I might add, and he came back at me with insults. So there's that.

I figured something like that, because you are usually not the type...but I think in this thread he was the one who stayed polite, against aggression. So maybe, you're even now?!

[Buleriachk]

Yeah, but I didn't make a theory mistake. I will admit that I didn't know about midi effect devices at the time .... but I don't think I was insulting and you were pretty snarky.

Ok, I'm outta here for real....

[stringtapper]

You have a rigid definition of scale as used to define harmonic progressions that don't fit many common uses of chords in harmonic progressions.

This is nonsensical. When was I even talking about scales at all?

I had to look up "tritone" to see how it is used w.r.t jazz

That's not inspiring confidence in me that I haven't been wasting my time throughout this exchange. If you don't even know what the basic terms mean, why are you even trying to discuss them with any authority?

You might want to grab a guitar and try these progressions (which are easy on the guitar, but difficult on a keyboard....)

Uh, they're not difficult to play on keyboard at all. And I mostly play stuff like this on Chapman Stick.

It might begin to make sense to you then....

I'm not the one having trouble making sense of these basic concepts Chuck.

Seriously. I've already repeated myself. You can grab any basic music theory text and confirm what I've said.

[stringtapper]

Yeah, but I didn't make a theory mistake. I will admit that I didn't know about midi effect devices at the time .... but I don't think I was insulting and you were pretty snarky.

Go back to the thread. It's there in plain English.

Ok, I'm outta here for real....

Honestly, good. I wish we could strip our entire exchange out of this thread and leave it with the helpful comments. I'd like to get back to some of ideas I was discussing in response to the OP.

[stringtapper]

Edit: And just to answer your wondering, yes there is a history where in another thread I criticized him on a theory mistake he made, staying very polite I might add, and he came back at me with insults. So there's that.

I figured something like that, because you are usually not the type...but I think in this thread he was the one who stayed polite, against aggression. So maybe, you're even now?!

Maybe so. Although that doesn't excuse either of our behavior. (Of course I think his character comes off as a little shadier since he's not even owning up to his insults)

[Buleriachk]

The chromatic scale in the definition of tritone (3 x two half-steps = 3 x steps):

(B,C)(C#,D)(D#,E)
If B7 is the dominant 7th, it resolves to E Major, and F the tritone substitution for B7 in the relation B7 -> E (F -> E.

(C,C#)(D,D#)(E,F)
If C7 dominant 7th, then it resolves to F Major, and F# is the tritone substitution for C7 in the relation C7 -> F (F# -> F).

Not every half-step shift in a chord progression is a tritone resolution..

[stringtapper]

The chromatic scale in the definition of tritone:

(B,C)(C#,D)(D#,E)
If B7 is the dominant 7th, it resolves to E Major, and F the tritone substitution for B7.

One more time Chuck:

The above is an EXAMPLE of a tritone substitution. But this not the only way that tritone subs can occur!

Check out Bird Blues changes and the ways that tritone subs are used in sequence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_changes

I think what may be confusing you is that in blues and jazz any chord may be altered to become a dominant seventh chord (called a major-minor chord in classical parlance).

So if any chord can become a dominant seventh then any chord can also take a tritone substitution.

^ Let that last part sink in. I think it's the crux of what you're missing here. I'm trying to offer this with sincerity. I'm frustrated but I don't want to be rude anymore.

[Buleriachk]

Not confusing me at all. I'm just sticking to the Wikipedia definition of a tritone resolution.

(I didn't bring tritone resolution up.. Maybe the substitution isn't for the Dominant 7th (as in Wikipedia). Maybe stacking other notes on the Dominant 7th or Tonic changes the definition).

Like maybe you're thinking of Bm7 -> E and substituting Fdim7 for Bm? That is outside the scope of the Wikipedia definition, but my interests right now don't go beyond Dominant 7th.
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And the whole context in the other thread you mention was about trying to use Dominant 7ths in a chord rack efficiently in a live music context... I didn't realize that the chords could be created using a midi effect rack, but in the end, the result was still impractical for my purposes....
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[stringtapper]

Not confusing me at all. I'm just sticking to the Wikipedia definition of a tritone resolution.

No, you're not. Look again:

In jazz, a tritone substitution is the chord substitution of a chord with a dominant chord that has its root a tritone away from the original.

And it's a tritone substitution, not a tritone resolution. Maybe that's why you're confused?

(I didn't bring tritone resolution up.. Maybe the substitution isn't for the Dominant 7th (as in Wikipedia). Maybe stacking other notes on the Dominant 7th or Tonic changes the definition).

Like maybe you're thinking of Bm7 -> E and substituting Fdim7 for Bm? That is outside the scope of the Wikipedia definition, but my interests right now don't go beyond Dominant 7th.

No that's not what I'm "thinking." You don't have to wonder what I'm "thinking" because I've already written what I'm talking about. This is maddening.

You're hell bent on the Wkipedia definition but you don't even seem to be reading it. What the hell is going on here?

Here it is one more time:

In jazz, a tritone substitution is the chord substitution of a chord with a dominant chord that has its root a tritone away from the original.

That's it. That is the barest definition you need because it applies to all situations in which a tritone sub occurs.

You are only applying it to the progression V-I, but tritone subs can happen on other progressions, such as ii-V, which I've already shown you and I'm not going to repeat again.

Do you understand what I've just written above?

[H20nly]

I can't wait till they announce the winner of this discussion!

If we do this right, we can get Ableton_David to ban discussions of religion, politics and music theory. Then we'll be getting somewhere.

oh snap... then we'll only have a few topics left to beat each other up over.

which monitors should i buy
what's your favorite soundcard
what's the best VST
and...
Mac vs. PC

kinda fucked up that Mac vs. PC survived where politics and religion failed.

[Buleriachk]

Not confusing me at all. I'm just sticking to the Wikipedia definition of a tritone resolution.

No, you're not. Look again:

In jazz, a tritone substitution is the chord substitution of a chord with a dominant chord that has its root a tritone away from the original.

And it's a tritone substitution, not a tritone resolution. Maybe that's why you're confused?

(I didn't bring tritone resolution up.. Maybe the substitution isn't for the Dominant 7th (as in Wikipedia). Maybe stacking other notes on the Dominant 7th or Tonic changes the definition).

Like maybe you're thinking of Bm7 -> E and substituting Fdim7 for Bm? That is outside the scope of the Wikipedia definition, but my interests right now don't go beyond Dominant 7th.

No that's not what I'm "thinking." You don't have to wonder what I'm "thinking" because I've already written what I'm talking about. This is maddening.

You're hell bent on the Wkipedia definition but you don't even seem to be reading it. What the hell is going on here?

Here it is one more time:

In jazz, a tritone substitution is the chord substitution of a chord with a dominant chord that has its root a tritone away from the original.

That's it. That is the barest definition you need because it applies to all situations in which a tritone sub occurs.

You are only applying it to the progression V-I, but tritone subs can happen on other progressions, such as ii-V, which I've already shown you and I'm not going to repeat again.

Do you understand what I've just written above?

[Martin Gifford]

Does musical theory is needed in electronic music ?

It is sometimes. Listen to the chords over the singing in Avicii's Levels. It would be unlikely to come up with those chords if you knew nothing about theory.

On the other hand, Avicii's music is extremely repetitive, like he doesn't know how to develop a melody - more music theory would help there for sure.

On the other other hand, he's made over $15m!

[H20nly]

^ it's like a snake eating its tail!

[Buleriachk]

Well, I do see in the Wiki example that they apply the half-step to the sub-dominant (F#7 -> F7)-> C in the context of C Major (I think) - they call it Gb which threw me off , and not the dominant 7th (which would be G#7 -> G7 -> C , and I will admit that I was just thinking of the Blues turn-around, and didn't read the article thoroughly, nor was I familiar with the tritone as a jazz device before this thread - I was assuming the Wiki definition referred to the dominant 7th relation. I just played it and it didn't sound like Blues turnaround to me, so I just ignored the rest. But if the tritone includes the dominant7th to tonic relation (B7 -> E), I like that particular substitution and not much else....

I am also totally uninterested in the iim -> V7 -> I relation; I just remember playing with it a long time ago and deciding it was not for me.

So I learned what the tritone substitution is from a jazz perspective, and I'll pass, thank you very much (except in the Dominant7th -> Tonic) context.... there are a few other traditional Flamenco contexts where it appears, but anything more and it starts to sound like jazz - and sucks, for my personal taste...

I gotta admit that for me and my interests this thread has way more trouble than its worth, and that this thread didn't exactly enrich my musical life, because too me, even a little jazz tends to cut the balls out of Flamenco. My only interest in all of this is to try to create interest in a chord rack for Ableton; and even that only lies as far as being able to use dominant 7ths in progressions (and related minor in the context of "Flamenco" Phrygian mode at that) (although I think complex chords should be available to everyone as a general principle)...

And it verified what I had suspected all along - that jazz (and Blues) don't have much to do with Flamenco unless forced in musically unbecoming ways.... If I'm going to listen to anything besides Flamenco, it will probably be hardcore Blues (Dominant seventh) or Rock...

So I guess that in my limited context I was wrong in trying to calculate the the tritone from the the C7 instead of the B7 dominant, and I now understand way more than I EVER wanted to about tritones in general application.... this thread has not exactly enriched my musical life and I find myself much the poorer for it spiritually, since it took me far away from Flamenco which has far different priorities (much closer to traditional V7 Blues).

Which is why I dislike speaking with jazz snarks..... (Blues guys are nowhere near as snarky)