OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.

Take responsibility for rogue members?

Muslims in general should rise up and cure their society
30
43%
Muslims have no responsibilty to manage the tiny minority of crazy muslims
40
57%
 
Total votes: 70

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:02 am

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
MrSleep wrote:
Astral Fridge Magnet! maybe you read it for some other reason.

So, what are you trying to imply?

MrSleep wrote:
it also sais, the infidels will find passages from the koran that contradict one another and bring enmity to the hearts of man.

That's a handy little passage to blindly follow everything that is said and subdue any questioning or debate. In other words blindly accept, don't argue, otherwise you ""bring enmity to the hearts of men"" Devotion is nice, but blind devotion is foolish!!!

let's let the Koran decide this "killing of infidels" issue for us. I will give you a few verses so you can understand the aggressiveness and ruthlessness of Islam. There are many more like these verses that are just as telling.

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

Verse 47:3 - "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

I think it is quite clear to see the hostile nature and commands for the Muslims. They are commanded to fight to kill all non-Muslims including atheists, secularists, humanists, evolutionists, and all other religions but you will find that the Koran places special emphasis on killing off Jews and Christians. This is probably because of the rejection the Jews and Christians gave Muhammad.

Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone here or to any muslims. I am just quoting what is stated. I know many muslims who don't buy into that shit, but it seems many fundamentalists do. Its the fundamentalists who are taking it literally and out of context and are responsible for the chaos and turmoil we are facing these days. Not peace loving muslims.


Anyway, perhaps it's best not to discuss these issues here. I guess there are many other more appropriate forums to discuss these ideas. I don't want to offend anyone or rub anyone here the wrong way.

Peace
Astral Fridge Magnet. :)

I dont mean to imply anything other what your true intentions were to read the koran..., that i dont know.

islam belives in all the prophets of the jews and christians and sees them as there own.
islam reads the Torah & the Bible.
islam rejects none but the ideology that God is Jesus (or vice versa) the son of God, the father the son and the holy ghost.

islam is reiterating that God is undivided and 1.
in the same language that all including electronics that represent themselves in 1 (the existence of God) 0 (the absence of God).
there are no numbers in between, and like everything else it all depends on excecution.

because the previous books have been tampered with, Mohammed's obligation was to make a compendious version of what was said before.
so the old & the new testament contradicting is all in the koran and to find the eloboarte version one would need to look in to the old and new.

and my response might incite another but we'll just be going round in a circle of race that proves who knows more words or something like that.

of course you can take quotes out of its context and portray what you please.

no pun inteneded,, peace. :)
hurry up.... mr squigle....

Livewire
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Post by Livewire » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:07 am

very nicely put MrSleep.

oh and i dont understand what people mean when they say the muslims have to stand up against the extremist muslim terrorists.

can someone give me an example? a possible example.

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:18 am

TO Mr. Sleep,

Machines working responded to something I wrote earlier and below is what I had to say to him (and everyone else who got annoyed with me)

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:
Astral Fridge Magnet wrote: \Verse 66:9 - "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate."

If you consider these quotes to be for a just cause, then OK. So killing non believers is a just cause is it? For the hundreth time, it is fanatics who are using passages like this to justify their actions. The majority of Muslims don't buy it.
Yeah probably because their interpretation is more like this one.

(66):9 – “O Prophet, struggle (jahada III) with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge shall be Gehenna—an evil homecoming!”

Notice how different the two are? You feel comfortable proclaiming a certain interpretation of Islam in order to justify your view that Christianity is somehow less interpretable. There are english interpretations of the Koran that paint it in many hues from what I can tell.....
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to show you that we as humans tends to filter things through our own belief systems, and fear is a motivating factor in what we choose to believe. I am wary of any viewpoint that paints any religious doctrine as somehow better or worse than another. People interpret (literally) ideas in general based on their own set of prejudices, and hand them out as fact.
.



I replied with

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:

So I accept what Machinesworking wrote. Again I will say that I will bow out of this debate and I really, truly mean no disrespect to anyone and I apologise if anyone got upset with what I had to say, if I misquoted or took things out of context. I just like to have a good old fashioned debate.


Peace!!!

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:32 am

hi Livewire.

im not an expert, but i'll try my best.

a muslim (or in other words a true beleiver) is allways in a state of unknowing, he can never say he/she will goto heaven, or hell for that matter.

everybody has a sense of integrity that they need to stand by, and through the eyes of the perfect "1" all the nuance intricacies of the human sense is judged unlike humans judging other humans by action and the depth of words, but we still try to do our best to keep our dignity.

of course, its too much of an arbitrary term to deal with and there is no straight answer, but who knows, the two enemy that fight one another here on earth today might giggle over it in the next life.

who knows?
hurry up.... mr squigle....

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:49 am

Astral Fridge Magnet, im not annoyed by you and feel no sense of acrimnony towards you whatsoever.

im sorry if i have offended you in anyway, though it is highly unlikely when talking about thses matters to not because we all have our dignity and that is good.

the thing is muslims are not allowed to debate the word of God. not even a comma.
the ones that do are condemed, like two philosephers debating logic.

what you read is what you get for yourself.
to learn more you can, but to debate is like one going to a native indian and saying i would like to debate why you do this.
hurry up.... mr squigle....

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:50 am

Though Mr. Sleep, I do have a question regarding your last post to Livewire. What do you mean by what you say here:
MrSleep wrote:hi Livewire.

im not an expert, but i'll try my best.

a muslim (or in other words a true beleiver)

Are you implying that only muslims are true believers and that people of other faiths are not? Just curious.

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:56 am

MrSleep wrote: the thing is muslims are not allowed to debate the word of God. not even a comma.
the ones that do are condemed, like two philosephers debating logic.

Seems a bit harsh to me.

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:02 am

Another question to you Mr.Sleep, I have heard that music unless within a religious context is not allowed by islam. Is this true?

sonorous3
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Re: OT:Hold all Muslims responsible; London, Bali, Madrid, 911?

Post by sonorous3 » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:36 am

anonymouse wrote:This is not meant to be an inflammatory post.

All intelligent people know that only a tiny percent of muslim society have that hatred in their hearts that allows Bali, London, Madrid and WTC to happen.

But is it a good idea to just hold all muslims responsible and expect muslim society to take responsibility for the trouble-makers that also call themselves muslim?

Or does muslim society have zero responsibility to control their craziest members?
No offence..im sure you have already heard but this is a STUPID THREAD. How about we kill all white people since they are responsible for killings of millions including NAtives, Japanese, Viietnamese, Iraqis, etc.

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:46 am

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:Though Mr. Sleep, I do have a question regarding your last post to Livewire. What do you mean by what you say here:
MrSleep wrote:hi Livewire.

im not an expert, but i'll try my best.

a muslim (or in other words a true beleiver)

Are you implying that only muslims are true believers and that people of other faiths are not? Just curious.
all true beleivers are considered muslims regardless of a name, sorry for not making that clear inough because that is what i meant..
hurry up.... mr squigle....

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:55 am

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
MrSleep wrote: the thing is muslims are not allowed to debate the word of God. not even a comma.
the ones that do are condemed, like two philosephers debating logic.

Seems a bit harsh to me.
there is no point in having a logical debate.., that is common knowledge in philosophy.
that is what i was refering to.

and condemmed by "1" as in being confound because man is not found to be confound.
hurry up.... mr squigle....

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:15 am

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:Another question to you Mr.Sleep, I have heard that music unless within a religious context is not allowed by islam. Is this true?
as i said, im no expert, but from what i know and read so far..

religion is an admonishment for man to be good.

so if its good (arbitrary term) music, then its religious like good words and good pictures to inspire for the better.
hurry up.... mr squigle....

Benshik
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Post by Benshik » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:19 am

Livewire wrote:
i'm a muslim and i'm not gona get all mad but thats a bit harsh man.

i'm just a regular guy living in california and i dont support terrorists in any way and i dont hate america. dont stereotype.

like i said before, there are extremists in all cultures.

peace.
Hi Livewire,
Glad you're not insulted...

What I would like to hear, is if some members of your community are able to say something else than the very unpasssionate and unconvincing "i don't support terror" Where's your oriental passion???
Where's your "BinLaden is a motherfucker!!!" Even stoic English gentlemen get angry and passionate when talking about Bush and Blair... The hot-blooded islamic community is telling the world "yep, euh... terror isnt' very right". Come on!
Even Arafat sounded more convincing when he was telling the naive western media "I want peace"

YOU CAN'T USE YOUR RELIGION TO DISCREDIT WHAT THE TERRORISTS DO!
Even if you say that islam is a religion of peace (for other muslims), you know that it preaches war on others religions.

That being said, it doesn't block me from having Muslim friends. I even had a long, serious relationship with a Muslim gal, so human nature is stronger than this ---- called religion.

Peace,

Ben
Macbook 2.2ghz, OS 10.5.2, Focusrite Saffire, Microkontrol, Lemur

MrSleep
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Post by MrSleep » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:52 am

Benshik.

you are only aware of what is going behind one border and not the other.

this forum (including the media all over the world) is full of threads when it happens to Graet Britian, America etc...,
when the bombing sanctions of these nations are killing in the multitudes of another, its not called terrorism, its called war on terror.., but when they respond its called terrorism.

Benshink, corporations stand for terrorism, that silent bunch of ameaba.

someone here said something like, dont look at the action but the purpose behind it.
dont draw your conclusions only from the fight but the reason why they fight.
hurry up.... mr squigle....

braj
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Post by braj » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:27 am

By The Name of Allah, The Most Merciful, The Most Beneficial

Why the doors of Ijitihad must reopen


Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmed Badawi said recently that "Ijitihad" or independent reasoning should be encouraged in Islam. In complete agreement is Farish A. Noor who argues that Islam will become exclusive, dogmatic and rigid if Muslims are prevented from critically examining and understanding their religion.

As a cultural movement Islam rejects the old static view of the universe and reaches a dynamic view. The ultimate spiritual basis of all life, as conceived by Islam, is eternal and reveals itself in variety and change.

A society based on such a conception of reality must reconcile, in its life, the category of permanence and change. It must possess eternal principles to regulate its collective life.

But eternal principles when they are understood to exclude all possibilities of change tend to immobilize what is essentially mobile in nature. What then is this principle of movement in the nature of Islam?

This is known as "Ijitihad". Thus wrote the Muslim philosopher and poet, Maulana Muhammed Iqbal in his work "The Reconstruction of the Religious Thought in Islam".

Iqbal touched on the subject of the dynamics of Islam civilization and cultural development for one simple reason. He was rejecting the claim that Islam culture and civilization had come to a standstill and was arguing against the finality of thought and ideas in the intellectual circles of Muslim thinkers, theologians and leaders.

For him, the Muslim world had reached a point of crisis for the simple reason that the religious leaders among the Muslims had voluntarily closed off all possibility of further thought and critical innovation among Muslims. After centuries of intra-Muslim doctrinal disputes which led to the emergence of the major schools of Islamic legal thought: the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafie and Hanbali, the ulama of the 10th century declared that the doors of "Ijitihad" (Independent reasoning) is shut.

The closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" by the ulama of the 10th century was a deliberate act to safeguard the interests of Muslims.

The ulama believed that by doing so they would help bring about greater unity in mind and purpose among the Muslims, and stop arguing and engaging in countless polemics and confrontations about the correct interpretation of Islam.

This move was fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons. It failed to produce the results that the ulama and Muslim leaders wanted so badly.

Muslim splinter groups and sects continued to emerge time and again, such as the Ahmadis and others. It also did not prevent some Muslim leaders from wantonly reinventing Islam to suit their purposes, such as the case of the Moghul empreor Jallaluddin Muhammed Akbar who created his own hybrid faith known as the Deen-illahi in Moghul India.

Furthermore, if the closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" was meant to end or at least contain the civil strife that had torn its way through the Muslim community, it must be remembered that the roots of the disturbances were not always religious or founded on disagreements over doctrine and dogma: More other than not, Muslims confronted each other for political, economic and strategic reasons as well.

But perhaps the most serious outcome of the closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" was that it closed the doors of Islamic intellectual space and gave the ulama the sole right and privilege to dominate and control the discussions and debates that were taking place within the Muslim intellectual world.

What it did, in effect, was to elevate them to an even higher position to the status of the defenders and disseminators of the "true" and "authentic" version of Islam.

Islam and Muslims have been burdened by the demands of this discourse of authenticity ever since. For centuries, Muslims have been had to deal with the legacy left behind by the conservative ulama of the past.

The ulama of the 10th century had created a stifling and narrow intellectual environment that ensured that knowledge - both religious and profane - in the Islamic world would not be able to develop without going through a rigid order of regimentation and regulation first.

The ulama's rigid control over what could be said and what could be discussed effectively cut of the rest of the Muslim community from the intellectual developments that were taking place in Islamic legal, theocratic and philosophical circles, making Islamic discourse less and less open an egalitarian and instead turning it into an exclusive space that was available only to the Muslim clerical elite who had passed the same tests of accreditation.

Islam was, in short, reinvented into a more exclusive and dogmatic religion with a pseudo-clerical class at its helm, while in its early form Islam was more open and Muslim society was free of such artificial hierarchies.

The world of Islam that was created as a result of the closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" was also less dynamic and less able to meet with the demands of the changing times.

The ulama who became the literal and illuminati of the Muslim world, eventually fulfilled he same role as the Mandarins of the Confucianist China. Both the Mandarins of ancient China and the ulama of the age of classical Islam had the same intention: to control the production and the reproduction of knowledge and to preserve only what they regarded as worthy of preservation.

In the Muslim world as was the case with China, this tendency towards intellectual policing managed to produce positive results in the beginning (such as the codification of knowledge and laws), but eventually created ossified and monolithic systems of thought that were slow to develop and rigid in their execution.

With the power of the European power in the Western renaissance, it was clear that the Muslim world (like Chinese civilization then), was not able to meet and counter the challenges directed against it.

Muslims eventually retreated back into their fabled past and dream of the "golden age" of Islam that provided them with little solace for their stagnation and decrepitude in the real world of the present.

What has become clear by now is that the decision to close the doors of "Ijitihad" had less to do with the desire to maintain and preserve the purity of the faith and more to do the desire on the part of some conservative Muslim scholars to maintain their own grip on a system of discourse that was open to all.

It was for this reason that Muhammed Iqbal condemned the mindset which sees the closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" as something irreversible and final. He wrote thus: "The closing of the door of Ijitihad is a pure fiction suggestion by the crystallization of legal thought in Islam, and partly by that intellectual laziness which in periods of spiritual decay turns great thinkers into idols for the masses".

The fault therefore lay not only with the ulama who claim to be the sole possessors of real knowledge of Islam, but also with ordinary Muslims who have relinquished their right (and their obligation) to learn about Islam and to think critically.

Today, we are still burdened with the legacy that has been left behind by the ulama of the past. In the contemporary Muslim world, we see that Muslims are more divided than ever.

In an age where Muslim states are desperately trying to maintain an adequate pace in the race of development, Muslims remain under the influence of religious leaders whose claim to authority and power rest solely on their status as the bearers of "authentic" traditions and religious knowledge.

It is undeniable that for a vast section of Muslims today, modernity and the development of the modern age represent daunting challenges to their inherited world view.

In the developed capitalist countries the "global citizens" of the borderless world speak and think as if geography was no longer relevant and frontiers no longer exist.

But in many parts of the Muslim world, Muslims still live in a state of deprivation and backwardness. Muslims the world over are still deprived of decent education, health, care, communications as well as their political and economic rights.

The plight ofMuslim women in particular, in counlike Pakistan, Afghanistan and others is so pathetic that it defies belief. Under such circumstances, we need to ask ourselves if the closing of the doors of "Ijitihad" is something that has helped Muslims to live amidst the painful realities of this modern world.

Can Muslims still hope to find their salvation in the empty slogans that have been repeated, ad nauseam, by the same school of ulama as generations before?

As Iqbal once described it: "Such is the lot of Muslim societies today. They are mechanically repeating old values. The question that confronts the Muslims today, and which is likely to confront Muslim societies in the future, is whether the law of Islam is capable of evolution?"

While some sections of the Muslim ulama and the Islamist movements continue to reiterate their claim that the plight of Muslims would be resolved if only they returned to the "pure" Islam of the past, there is a growing body of contemporary Muslim thinkers who are calling for the reopening of the doors of Ijitihad.

Ironically, these reformers include some of the more prominent Muslim thinkers of the 19th and the 20th centuries like Jamaluddin al-Afghani and Muhammed Iqbal, who were not too long ago the heros of the Islamists as well.

The opening of the doors of Ijitihad is the only way through which the socio-cultural, intellectual, political and economic dynamics of Muslim society can be revived from within.

Muslims of the modern world can no longer deal with the problems of modernity by using ancient remedies. Believing in empty promises or fantasies about the past will not feed the poor nor clothe the needy.

Fables about the grandeur of Islam will not educate the young, nor will they bring justice to the Muslims who cry out for them. What is needed more than ever today, is the revival of the spirit of Ijitihad which takes as its starting point the simple premise that not all the answers to the Muslims' questions can be found with a group of religious scholars alone.

The future of Islam depends on the entire community, and not only the ulama. What is more, the Muslim community needs to be allowed to find the answers it seeks without being restricted by the self-appointed guardians of their faith.

As Iqbal once wrote: "The teaching of the Quran that life is a process of progressive creation necessitates that each generation, guided but unhampered by the work of its predecessors, should be permitted to solve its own problems".



From New Strait Times Newspaper the issue of January 17, 2000.

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