Ableton Forum

angstrom wrote

Right now I feel like electronic musicians and DJs have been building a technological tunnel and just now have they met in the middle with a confused look on their faces.

i agree.

oh and i dont go to gawk at the DJ. wait a minute... are you guys saying when you go to a party to listen to a DJ who you love and admire that you never look at the DJ? lol. the only point i was trying to make is make your live act more then clicking on a mouse and you'll connect with the crowd better and they will connect with you. i get into the groove better when i can tell the DJ is getting into it and is loving it. people vibe off the Dj having fun. but i know there are performers who will not bring up anything but their laptop and thats fine. because then ill stand out when i go up on stage

do what you will [/quote]

Needs2Know wrote:angstrom wrote

Right now I feel like electronic musicians and DJs have been building a technological tunnel and just now have they met in the middle with a confused look on their faces.

i agree.

oh and i dont go to gawk at the DJ. wait a minute... are you guys saying when you go to a party to listen to a DJ who you love and admire that you never look at the DJ? lol. the only point i was trying to make is make your live act more then clicking on a mouse and you'll connect with the crowd better and they will connect with you. i get into the groove better when i can tell the DJ is getting into it and is loving it. people vibe off the Dj having fun. but i know there are performers who will not bring up anything but their laptop and thats fine. because then ill stand out when i go up on stage

do what you will

[/quote]

i vibe off the people on the dancefloor having fun. I really don't care about the DJ, maybe i am oldskool in that department, but a good DJ for me is someone that plays good music in the right order (ie programming). I can fully understand why someone like moodymann started DJ'ing behind a curtain. There is nothing to be seen about a DJ, selecting music, cue'ing it, and working the mixer. For the last few years i am often really surprised about entering a club where half of the dancefloor is bouncing around a little, and everybody staring at the DJ (and at eachothers backs), and taking their cue's from the DJ (there is a break coming up, DJ is working the EQ and waving in the air, dancefloor is also waving in the air etc.etc.). It seems that people have become more and more sheepish over the years. In the beginning of house and techno a dancefloor was purely about listening to the music, people would go crazy over new music they'd never heard before. But now it seems people only come for a certain name, and don't care a bit about the music, if it's a big name DJ they will react to it, if it's a non-name they won't even bother to dance. The content itself, the music, doesn't seem to matter one bit. And that's sad.

so i'm afraid you're kind of right. If you put up a mix-album and start jumping around like a madman, putting up a big show, people will probably enjoy it much more than a quiet DJ playing the most amazing music in a concentrated state. And personally, i think that's sad, and also killing the dancemusic scene and the innovation that's so important for it.

Really, when we do a live performance, and take half of my studio on stage, dress up, have live vocals and also have a very good VJ show, people will still come up to us and say that our DJ-set was so cool! the regular clubaudience really doesn't understand what a live performance is about, to them it's all DJ'ing. I've been DJ'ing for over 15 years, and personally i really feel that the last years most dancefloors have really become focused on the name of the DJ and his/her act, and really don't care a bit about music anymore.

Olaf

claudek wrote:

Tarekith wrote:Putting DJs on a stage was one the worst things to happen to club culture IMO. DJing is not, nor should it be (IMVHO) a visual artform. DJs should not be worshipped for how they look or act while playing music ina very simple way. .

I agree somewhat with above....but then anyone can sit up in the dj booth or even the clubowner could hit Live clips..I mean even one could drop in a dvd of a long mp3 mix that would play all night..

It should be just about the music, but it's not. It's show business, ladies and gentlemen! The crowd have been conditioned to regard and expect the showboat antics of the DJ as part of the entertainment. Otherwise the promoter WOULD just put a CD on.

It's the precious DJs who can't/won't admit that it's just a circus act that I can't understand. They'll go down kicking and screaming as they're replaced by truly talented and creative laptop entertainers as the more knowledgeable public finally realize what a joke beatmatching two records while jumping up and down doing full-body-motion filter sweeps and EQ kills is.

But it's up to the electronic entertainers to do it right. Slamming as many effects as possible on a track, cheezy mash-ups, etc, could doom electronic entertainment before it even starts. I'm sure that's what the antiquated vinyl/CD/Traktor guys are hoping for!

It's also up to the new wave of DJs (for lack of a better term) to build some 'circus act' elements in just for entertainment value. Nobody wants to watch a geek that looks like he's checking his e-mail. That's why I'm doing lighting, video, surround, and live percussion. Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey may be knocking on my door!

I agree it should be about the music and not the stage antics.

But unfortunately it's not.

My opinion only.

Selling the sizzle, not the steak.

JK of Jamiroquai wears those uber cool hats and does his funky robot moon walk strutting on stage.

Without these distracting gimmicks people would realise he is actually a nauseatingly cheezy acid pseudo-jazz pop star. But with it, he is the epitome of cool (well slightly cooler than his irritating music justifies, thanks to the sizzle of fast cars AND the hats)


(personal note: gotta get me a hat. maybe with horns or lights on)

hambone1 wrote:

claudek wrote:

Tarekith wrote:Putting DJs on a stage was one the worst things to happen to club culture IMO. DJing is not, nor should it be (IMVHO) a visual artform. DJs should not be worshipped for how they look or act while playing music ina very simple way. .

I agree somewhat with above....but then anyone can sit up in the dj booth or even the clubowner could hit Live clips..I mean even one could drop in a dvd of a long mp3 mix that would play all night..

It should be just about the music, but it's not. It's show business, ladies and gentlemen! The crowd have been conditioned to regard and expect the showboat antics of the DJ as part of the entertainment. Otherwise the promoter WOULD just put a CD on.

It's the precious DJs who can't/won't admit that it's just a circus act that I can't understand. They'll go down kicking and screaming as they're replaced by truly talented and creative laptop entertainers as the more knowledgeable public finally realize what a joke beatmatching two records while jumping up and down doing full-body-motion filter sweeps and EQ kills is.

But it's up to the electronic entertainers to do it right. Slamming as many effects as possible on a track, cheezy mash-ups, etc, could doom electronic entertainment before it even starts. I'm sure that's what the antiquated vinyl/CD/Traktor guys are hoping for!

It's also up to the new wave of DJs (for lack of a better term) to build some 'circus act' elements in just for entertainment value. Nobody wants to watch a geek that looks like he's checking his e-mail. That's why I'm doing lighting, video, surround, and live percussion. Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey or representatives of the local Cheese Council may be knocking on my door!

I agree it should be about the music and not the stage antics.

But unfortunately it's not.

My opinion only.

if it's all about the circus-act i have 2 questions:

1)why do i need to use live to make some supercomplicated restructured live/DJ mixup? I could , as you suggest, simply play a prerecorded mix-CD and jump around on the DJ stage. That would be all the circus-act people need to have. Believe me, the general audience doesn't have any problem with a DJ "beatmatching two records while jumping up and down doing full-body-motion filter sweeps and EQ kills", i agree with some earlier posters they even prefer it over people doing the live performance/remix/DJ thing, because they don't recognise their favorite tunes and their structures anymore. Ever noticed how funny a dancefloor reacts when you play the original version of a big smashrecord or a new remix that restructures the original so that the breaks aren't on the same spot again? people like to hear what they know.

2)explain the succes of DJ's like David Mancuso, Francois K, Frankie Knuckles, Kerri Chandler, Masters at Work, Carl Craig, Moodymann, Larry Levan etc. Basically these DJ's were (and are) all about the music and the programming, and not about putting up a big circus. Hell, most of these guys started out when the DJ was put somewhere in a corner. But they played the most amazing music, could read the dancefloor, and guide them into new territories with new and innovative and exciting music. It's all about music, not some kind of show. But maybe it's very different in other genres of electronic music, like trance etc.

i have to say i find this a very interesting and thought-provoking discussion!

Olaf

I agree. Frankie Knuckles & Co were revolutionary at the time, and can still pull a crowd. The problem is that they should have stayed in the corner rather become visual acts, and therefore set the precedent for all DJs.

Now if jumping up & down/punching the air/full-body-motion knob twists and button pushing isn't a circus act, I don't know what is! I don't have a problem with it at all. But showboating it is. I just wish DJs could admit it and more forward.

No doubt the crowd would much prefer to hear a track they know rather than the mashed-up, over-FXed, unrecognizable abortions that are going to come from the hordes of talentless laptop musicians. And they probably don't want to hear original beat-repeat beeps & squeaks, either. I've played in enough bands where the crowd didn't want to hear original tunes, no matter how good we thought they were. But it depends on the venue and the event, too.

I personally don't alter the main track. It's what they know. I just embellish it with (hopefully!) tasteful multimedia elements that add to the party vibe.

Great discussion!

could it be that y'all are a bit cynical? I understand not liking the effect of showboating DJs that might not have the skills compared to the great masters of old, but there is a lot to be said for the DJ who programs the music well and can also interact with the crowd and give them cues to feed off of.

At least we've gotten off the idea that we are retarded hamsters. LOL.

rob.

robtronik wrote: there is a lot to be said for the DJ who programs the music well and can also interact with the crowd and give them cues to feed off of.

if you are really feeling the music and what you're doing, it shows

you shouldnt be able to help yourself really. it should be the main reason why you're doing it in the first place.

people see this and they do respond to it .. but mainly theyre responding to what you're playing

has nothing to do with being fake, or grandstanding

again - i really think some of you are overthinking this a bit i dont think its rocket science, any of it ....

although the trend of people staring up at the booth a cueing off the DJ is a bit much ....
.

I agree here, too. If you love what you're doing, it shows, it's infectious, and the crowd will catch it, too.

The showboating/grandstanding I'm referring to is the pained-facial-expression-this is-SO-fucking-difficult-and-talented-to twist-this-filter-sweep-knob-for-16-beats attitude. It really makes me cringe. (Maybe I've seen the Chemical Brothers one too many times...)

It's no new phenomenon though. Most guitarists goes into great grimaces of pain any time they solo above the 12th fret! Why? It's actually easier than soloing nearer the headstock! I read once that it originated from sax players, who WERE in pain when soloing in the higher registers!

hambone1 wrote: the pained-facial-expression-this is-SO-fucking-difficult-and-talented-to twist-this-filter-sweep-knob-for-16-beats attitude. It really makes me cringe.

hahhaha.. no doubt! hilarious imo

hambone1 wrote:
It's no new phenomenon though. Most guitarists goes into great grimaces of pain any time they solo above the 12th fret! Why? It's actually easier than soloing nearer the headstock! I read once that it originated from sax players, who WERE in pain when soloing in the higher registers!

well, being a former heavy rock guitarist with a love for good soloing, i can tell you that in the most geninuine cases it comes from teh sound itself:

theyre not grimaces of pain. see, the higher registers are actually lifting you up inside - so your forehead scrunches up and your eybrows lift with the sound, and with the eyes closed it looks like you're in pain

this sounds ridiculous but its true. try it!!

as a guitar player part of your job was not to look like an idiot onstage, avoiding unconsiously doing that look was one of the basic things you had to do. along with any number of other "easy to fall into without realizing it dumb guitar player faces"

.

I think the cool thing is that with the computer, you are able to go beyond just spinning discs.

I think what is cool is that for the artist, he/she is able to perform their own tunes (or others for that matter) utilizing Live and instruments and controllers. It's another way to express your music.

Froma pure DJ's point of view, there are propably DJ that absolutely shun the very nature of Live. The purists will have nothing but vinyl, but others may embrace the use of our newly found technology, and then there may be those that embrace both.

You have DJ's

DJ's/composers aka Paul Van Dyke/BT etc..

Then you have hte bands/groups/composers, etc...


All can benefit from the use of LIve in their own ways.

I hear a dj and I like what he's playing.

I don't care if he's beating on a stick or using a tamborine.

What matters is how it sounds... I mean it is MUSIC right?

You know... MUSIC.. what you HEAR! You know, from your EARS, which have nothing to do with your EYES, which is mean't for SEEING, thus WHY THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHAT HE'S USING AND WHY DOES THAT EFFECT WHAT YOU ... HEAR?!

If its dope its dope, relax, no one needs to respect your "skills", its about the MUSIC!

Or am I mistaken?


^ thats just me though,

What if the future clubs become like a modern robotic jukebox..that takes requests.
There could be around the dancefloor a machine with listings of songs and one could hit a song and it would be sent to a automated robotic computer. Publishing would be automatically recorded as well. One could pay for requests or it could be free. The Robot would look as a dj but in fact it was nothing but a manniquin. Even could have styles from famous dj's (Coxx, Digweed, Hawtin, ,Sanchez, etc..) to get there mixing & music styles & themes.
The eyes would sense the crowd, emotion settings etc.
On those senses and feedback data, the requests would be mixed in,lighting, mixing styles, etc. The mixes would be perfect and the mood would be perfected on the data sent intoto dj robot. The robot would even know the amount of regulars in the club to help know he is to play upon.
There would be of course a special version of Live running as the main sofware.
This in fact seems what we are needing..Humans are not necessary if just hitting clips.Maybe time to think of fuk the human dj!

i get the fealing that alot of you miss the old days. im really interested in the historical aspect of electronic music dating all the way back to the 1800s. whats interesting is there is a basic idea that has always carried through time and that is, "inovative sounds" (created by electronic instruments). and there is some sort of postive ora about this that i cant really put my fingure on.

as long as what you do evolves around this basic idea, you are on the right track i would say. no matter what you do to your music or at a gig. if it feels right, go with it.

You mean one can DJ with Ableton Live?