Ableton Forum

deva wrote:Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace

Are these movies really that common? I can't think of any.

I have no idea if it is common in movies. That is quoted from the article. Whether it is common or not is of course not relevant to the main thrust of the article.

This is another in a growing list of desparate measures to convince people to be afraid in order to justify actions that people would never otherwise accept. Wars of aggression abroad and loss of liberty at home.

Fortunately the people of the United States are waking up somewhat. In a recent OhioUniversity poll, 30% of those polled believed that the U.S. government had a hand in 911 attacks.

This is quite remarkable really. 30%

A Zogby poll wellover a year ago showed 50% of NYC residents thought the U.S. government let 911 happen on purpose.

The so called War on Terror has been bogus from the start

It's not real. none of it is...

deva wrote:I have no idea if it is common in movies. That is quoted from the article. Whether it is common or not is of course not relevant to the main thrust of the article.

The point of the article was that "they" (whoever they are) are getting their ideas from Hollywood movies, and moviemakers don't understand chemistry. So I guess it's only relevant in that it was the main point of the article. But it was a dumb premise to start with, since I can't think of one such movie (even though the writer complains about how "tedious" it would be to "enumerate" them all ). It was a stupid, poorly written piece.

So your point is that the plot was made up? Or that we shouldn't try to stop this sort of thing? If the former, what's your evidence? If the latter, why not?

30% seems low to me. There are tons of stupid people out there.

pilcrow wrote:?

30% seems low to me. There are tons of stupid people out there.

I would be curious to know the co-relation between belief in 9/11 conspiracies and political donation history (which is a matter of public record, considering that voting habits are not).

It seems that most of the people I meet who believe that the US Govt staged 9/11 often have radical political agendas which are served by this belief. The people who don't buy into the conspiracy theory (or maintain a healthy sense of skepticism) seem distributed evenly across the political spectrum.

By radical political view view points, do you mean they think that the war on terror is being used as an excuse to further US/UK interests in the middle east? If so then then that would be a logical conclusion to believing the government allowed it to happen.

I guess a distrust of the government in general would make it easier to jump to that conclusion.

I always find it funny that both sides (maybe not the right word) always accuse the other of being taken in by propaganda. Of course they are, we all are. We just choose whose oppinion we believe in.

to believe we are not being told the truth is nothing to do with being left or right. I think people just want the truth regardless of the political consequences.

pilcrow wrote:

deva wrote:I have no idea if it is common in movies. That is quoted from the article. Whether it is common or not is of course not relevant to the main thrust of the article.

The point of the article was that "they" (whoever they are) are getting their ideas from Hollywood movies, and moviemakers don't understand chemistry. So I guess it's only relevant in that it was the main point of the article. But it was a dumb premise to start with, since I can't think of one such movie (even though the writer complains about how "tedious" it would be to "enumerate" them all ). It was a stupid, poorly written piece.

I think the point of the article was to illustrate the difficulties involved in carrying out these alleged attacks. I agree that I can't think of any movies with this in but the article still contained relevant information.

Gyu wrote: I agree that I can't think of any movies with this in but the article still contained relevant information.

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Me thinks they watch too much Youtube.

I'm curious.


Does it have to be Diet Coke, or will any carbonated beverage work?

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pilcrow wrote:

deva wrote:I have no idea if it is common in movies. That is quoted from the article. Whether it is common or not is of course not relevant to the main thrust of the article.

The point of the article was that "they" (whoever they are) are getting their ideas from Hollywood movies, and moviemakers don't understand chemistry. So I guess it's only relevant in that it was the main point of the article. But it was a dumb premise to start with, since I can't think of one such movie (even though the writer complains about how "tedious" it would be to "enumerate" them all ). It was a stupid, poorly written piece.

So your point is that the plot was made up? Or that we shouldn't try to stop this sort of thing? If the former, what's your evidence? If the latter, why not?

30% seems low to me. There are tons of stupid people out there.

well, maybe you are right... 30% is the number of people who voted for Bush

The point of the article is that spending hours in the lavatory, under controlled temperature conditions mixing smelly and volatile chemicals in order to create an explosive is the idea of idiots. No intelligent person is going to think they can carry some equipment into the lavatory and spend 3-4 hours in there preparing their explosive and not get noticed. geez!

The U.S. and U.K. governments are sending agents out to try to find some disaffected nuts, convince them to take some action and then arrest them as terrorists cause they are desparate to try to keep people afraid and thus pliable to their agenda.

1. The Foiled Ricin Threat: London, January 2003

There was a ricin terror alert in January 2003, barely two months before the invasion of Iraq. According to several media reports, it had been ordered by terror mastermind Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. The ricin had allegedly been discovered in a London apartment. It was to be used in a terror attack in the London subway.

A team from Porton Down chemical and biological weapons research centre confirmed that they had found no ricin. (See Milan Rai, April 2005).



British press reports, quoting official statements claimed that the terrorists had learnt to produce the ricin at the camp in Northern Iraq. General Richard Myers, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, asserted that

"It is from this site that people were trained and poisons were developed which migrated into Europe... We think that's probably where the ricin found in London came from." (quoted in Birmingham Evening Mail, March 31, 2003)

Yet when US Special Forces in March 2003 raided the camp in Northern Iraq, nothing resembling biological or chemical weapons was found:

"What they found was a camp devastated by cruise missile strikes during the first days of the war. A specialized biochemical team scoured the rubble for samples. [there was] no immediate proof of chemical or biological agents. (ABC News, 29 March 2003)

The London Observer's correspondent in Northern Iraq (9 February 2003) blatantly refuted these claims:

" There is no sign of chemical weapons anywhere - only the smell of paraffin and vegetable butter used for cooking. ... Mohammad Hasan, spokesman for Ansar al-Islam, explained. 'We don't have any drugs for our fighters. We don't even have any aspirin. How can we produce any chemicals or weapons of mass destruction?'"

2. Radioactive Dirt Bombs: Washington, DC, 8 February 2003 (Three days after Colin Powell's Presentation to the UN Security Council)

In the immediate aftermath of Secr. Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council regarding Iraq's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) declared a code orange terror alert, pointing to insidious links between Al Qaeda and Sadaam Hussein:

"Top intelligence officials gave Congress a sobering warning Tuesday of the al-Qaeda terrorist network's interest in using missiles and poisons to inflict mass casualties in the United States, adding grim new detail to previous accounts of looming terror attacks. The warning came as a broadcast statement believed to have come from al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden pledged the terrorist group's support for Iraqis and called on followers to defeat a US-led invasion. ... Taken together, the statements from U.S. officials and the shadowy terrorist organization sharpened the sense that the United States faces its greatest threat of terrorist assault since the Sept. 11 attacks." (US Today, 12 February 2006, emphasis added)

The announcement served to turn realities upside down. Sadaam and Osama had joined hands. America rather than Iraq was under attack. The terror alert also contributed served to diverting public attention from the divisions within the Security Council and the accusations directed against Colin Powell for having misled the UN's highest body.



A fabricated story on so-called ‘radioactive dirty bombs’ had been planted in the news chain. A few days following his address to the UN, Sec. Powell warned that:

"it would be easy for terrorists to cook up radioactive ‘dirty’ bombs to explode inside the U.S. … ‘How likely it is, I can't say... But I think it is wise for us to at least let the American people know of this possibility.’" (Statement by Colin Powell, ABC This Week quoted in Daily News (New York), 10 Feb. 2003).

Musab Abu Al Zarqawi was identified as the number one suspect. Meanwhile, network TV had warned that:

"American hotels, shopping malls or apartment buildings could be al Qaeda's targets as soon as next week…".

Following the announcement, tens of thousands of Americans rushed to purchase duct tape, plastic sheets and gas-masks.

It later transpired, that the terrorist alert was " fabricated" by the CIA:

"According to officials, the FBI and the CIA are pointing fingers at each other. An FBI spokesperson told ABCNEWS today he was 'not familiar with the scenario', but did not think it was accurate."

(ABC News, 13 Feb. 2003, See also http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG302A.html)

In another related report on ABC TV:

PETER JENNINGS

(Off Camera) ABC's Brian Ross begins our reporting. Brian, last night we were wondering whether the intelligence agencies were operating on good information. What do we know today?

BRIAN ROSS, ABC NEWS

(Off Camera) Well, Peter, today, two senior officials tell ABC News that a key piece of the information leading to the recent terror alerts was, in fact, fabricated.

BRIAN ROSS

(Voice Over) In particular, a claim by a captured al Qaeda member that Washington, New York, or Florida would be hit by a dirty bomb sometime this week, by a secret al Qaeda cell operating in Virginia or Detroit.

VINCE CANNISTRARO,

FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL

This piece of that puzzle turns out to be fabricated. And therefore, and the reason for a lot of the alarm, particularly in Washington this week, has been dissipated, after they found out that this, this information was not true.

(ABC News, 13 February 2003)

Both the FBI and the CIA in contradictory statements subsequently clarified that the intelligence had not fabricated. But rather, it was the "suspected terrorist in custody [who had deliberately] fabricated information about potential attacks. The detainee's remarks were one factor in raising the threat advisory to code orange" (Los Angeles Times, 15 Feb 2006)

While tacitly acknowledging that the alert was a fake, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge decided to maintain the ‘Orange Code’ alert:

"Despite the fabricated report, there are no plans to change the threat level. Officials said other intelligence has been validated and that the high level of precautions is fully warranted." ( ABC News, 13 Feb. 2003 ).

A few days later, in another failed propaganda initiative, a mysterious Osama bin Laden audio tape was presented by Sec. Colin Powell to the US Congress as ‘evidence’ that the Islamic terrorists "are making common cause with a brutal dictator". (US official quoted in The Toronto Star, 12 Feb. 2003). Curiously, the audio tape was in Colin Powell's possession prior to its broadcast by the Al Jazeera TV Network. (Ibid.)

3. Alleged Chemical Weapons' Attack: Madrid, 5 February 2003

Meanwhile in Spain, coinciding with Colin's Powell's Security Council presentation, Bush's coalition partner, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar had initiated his own disinformation campaign, no doubt in liaison with US officials.

Perfect timing! While Colin Powell was presenting the Al-Zarqawi dossier to the UN, on the very same day, February 5, 2003, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar was busy briefing the Spanish parliament on an alleged chemical terror attack in Spain.

According to Aznar, Al Zarqawi was apparently linked to a number of European Islamic "collaborators" including Merouane Ben Ahmed, "an expert in chemistry and explosives who visited Barcelona" (reported in El Pais, February 6 2003).

Prime Minister Aznar's speech to the Chamber of Deputies (Camera de diputados) intimated that the 16 alleged Al Qaeda suspects, who apparently were in possession of explosives and lethal chemicals, had been working hand in glove with Al Zarqawi.


The information had been fabricated. The Spanish Ministry of Defense report confirmed that:

"the lethal chemicals" turned out to be "harmless and some were household detergent... " (quoted in Irish News, 27 February 2003, emphasis added):

"A defence ministry lab outside Madrid tested the substances - a bag containing more than half a pound of powder and several bottles or containers with liquids or residues- for the easy-to-make biological poison ricin...The Spanish defence ministry, which carried out the tests, and the lab itself declined to comment " (Ibid)