Ableton Forum

Personal Experience contradicts the fool:
there's one guy I knew a few years back who was/is unreasonably successful with women, he generally fucked 2 girls a day, that was about his minimum. He was (and is) ugly, poor, not a drug dealer, not in a band, not an artist, not funny, not well connected, not born into 'society'. He just had confidence, he talked very amenably, sincerely and flatteringly to women - not in clubs. Women loved him, afterwards they all wanted to be his friend - often resulting in threesomes of all his 'friends'. God, us blokes hated him.
Anyway, theres a guy to take advice off. Not this ladder theory fool.

WTF???
Right, we all know tons of people like that...that's how real life is for most guys, right? Ugly, poor, not funny yet banging hot chicks all day, and frequesnt threesomes. Yeah, that's "real life" but Ladder Theory is crazy talk?

riiiiiiight....

Anyone who reads a line or two of LT without going through it and truy understanding the concepts (and they are solid) is going to come off with the impression that the guy is bitter and drunk. And maybe he is, but he's also right on the money for 95% of all women, imho. And men too, for that matter.

And I'm not single btw...

I did point out that he was unreasonably successful, considering his 'handicaps'. The point being - there are many instances from personal experience I could use which undermine this 'theory'. I know of a few blokes who recently 'jumped ladders' from 'friend' to 'shag'.
I listened to my girlfriend talk on the phone to the girls involved so I know what their decision process was. It was pretty much - " I never really fancied him for the years I've known him, but we had a really fun night and I'm thinking about it now". Yet this is supposedly not possible.

A friend of mine is a big ugly lump of a man , but hilarious - he 'laughed into bed' a good looking woman who swore he was only a friend. He is as nice a guy as you would ever meet.

A 'nice guy' once classified cannot be re-classified?
yet we must all know that women (and men) re-classify all the time, situations change and opinions change. I used to like these shoes but don't now. I thought that guy was a dick, but actually he's OK. His mother died so I spent some time with him. we fucked.

everyone thinks there are great and the other guy is a dick, so there must be some reason right? Why do women go for assholes? Because everyone is an asshole when viewed as a competitor.

In actuality, in the anthropology of hominids the female of the species are more likely to mate for life with 'nice guys' who are attractive to them in some way, stable and confident. Reason : biologically women look for a stable father, although an asshole can make a reasonable one-night stand, but there is a requirement they wont fuck off and leave them with 5 kids.

The dominant theory in anthropology is actually one of multiple female mating strategies, of mixing the potential mate types for a safe offspring outcome. The asshole type is actually way down the list,

EG:

The Mating Mind by Geoffrey Miller wrote: there are three kinds of female preference that have been studied: one is a preference “for high ranking males capable of protecting females and offspring from other males; [second is a] preference for male “friends” that have groomed the female a lot and have been kind to her offspring; [and third] is a preference for new males from outside the group, perhaps to avoid genetic inbreeding” (184). Each of these is easily explained by “female choice for good genes or female choice for material and social benefits” (184).

Ladder fool mentions his scientific theory - but it's all just made up self-serving nonsense. It gained social currency because it appeals to the readers ego. It's easy to construct an argument in this way that panders to egotism and is based on commonly observed behaviours. The extrapolation is nonsense though.
his idea of what makes an 'alpha male' sounds more like the guy he'd least like to meet in combat than anyone elses definition of a 'leader' archetype.

The 'scientific' pie charts and percentages, classic stuff. Make up a number, make a chart then discuss it like it is a fact.

from what study group are those drawn then?
they wouldn't be 'made up' to give false credence to a point of view would they?

pffft

no matter how early you get to a club, don't start pimping until after 11:30pm...

Angstrom wrote:I did point out that he was unreasonably successful, considering his 'handicaps'. The point being - there are many instances from personal experience I could use which undermine this 'theory'. I know of a few blokes who recently 'jumped ladders' from 'friend' to 'shag'.
I listened to my girlfriend talk on the phone to the girls involved so I know what their decision process was. It was pretty much - " I never really fancied him for the years I've known him, but we had a really fun night and I'm thinking about it now". Yet this is supposedly not possible.

A friend of mine is a big ugly lump of a man , but hilarious - he 'laughed into bed' a good looking woman who swore he was only a friend. He is as nice a guy as you would ever meet.

A 'nice guy' once classified cannot be re-classified?
yet we must all know that women (and men) re-classify all the time, situations change and opinions change. I used to like these shoes but don't now. I thought that guy was a dick, but actually he's OK. His mother died so I spent some time with him. we fucked.

everyone thinks there are great and the other guy is a dick, so there must be some reason right? Why do women go for assholes? Because everyone is an asshole when viewed as a competitor.

In actuality, in the anthropology of hominids the female of the species are more likely to mate for life with 'nice guys' who are attractive to them in some way, stable and confident. Reason : biologically women look for a stable father, although an asshole can make a reasonable one-night stand, but there is a requirement they wont fuck off and leave them with 5 kids.

The dominant theory in anthropology is actually one of multiple female mating strategies, of mixing the potential mate types for a safe offspring outcome. The asshole type is actually way down the list,

EG:

The Mating Mind by Geoffrey Miller wrote: there are three kinds of female preference that have been studied: one is a preference “for high ranking males capable of protecting females and offspring from other males; [second is a] preference for male “friends” that have groomed the female a lot and have been kind to her offspring; [and third] is a preference for new males from outside the group, perhaps to avoid genetic inbreeding” (184). Each of these is easily explained by “female choice for good genes or female choice for material and social benefits” (184).

Ladder fool mentions his scientific theory - but it's all just made up self-serving nonsense. It gained social currency because it appeals to the readers ego. It's easy to construct an argument in this way that panders to egotism and is based on commonly observed behaviours. The extrapolation is nonsense though.
his idea of what makes an 'alpha male' sounds more like the guy he'd least like to meet in combat than anyone elses definition of a 'leader' archetype.

The 'scientific' pie charts and percentages, classic stuff. Make up a number, make a chart then discuss it like it is a fact.

from what study group are those drawn then?
they wouldn't be 'made up' to give false credence to a point of view would they?

pffft

This is the best fucking forum message I've ever read.

My personal experience backs up ladder theory.

I get more action as an arrogant ass than I ever did as Mr. Nicey-Nice.

The best way to score a hot broad at a club? Enter the club with another hot broad on your arm. Even if it's your cousin, don't worry - she's just for show. When they see you with a quality lookin female, the others get into "competition mode". You go up ten points up the ladder on that one.

I used to date a girl who ended up winning a national stripping title (after we broke up).

I was by no means in her league - she was way too hot for a toad like me; but we clicked (and I'm a musician, so I guess I was higher up her "ladder"). Anyways, while I was with her, I had scores of hot broads sniffing around me like flies around a dog-turd on the sidewalk on a hot July afternoon.

It was all about getting my attention; if these broads could distract me from my girlfriend, then they coul pretend that they're of paralell quality.

C'est la vie.

The ladder theory is true and tested.

what matters is:

confidence (to the point of mild arrogance)
not caring whether or not they like you
having other chicks on you
having tons of friends all around
seeming too busy and important to talk
dressing nice
smelling good
having money and showing it
being a part of the "in crowd"
being a musician or DJ
Knowing bartenders
having good drugs
having charisma and good table talk

omg... your "ambition" strikes "success".

as far as me can say, just dance and love the time and club, go with the wavies and there will come the fitting ladies.

Angstrom

Ladder fool mentions his scientific theory - but it's all just made up self-serving nonsense. It gained social currency because it appeals to the readers ego. It's easy to construct an argument in this way that panders to egotism and is based on commonly observed behaviours. The extrapolation is nonsense though.
his idea of what makes an 'alpha male' sounds more like the guy he'd least like to meet in combat than anyone elses definition of a 'leader' archetype.

The 'scientific' pie charts and percentages, classic stuff. Make up a number, make a chart then discuss it like it is a fact.

from what study group are those drawn then?
they wouldn't be 'made up' to give false credence to a point of view would they?

pffft

You're missing the point about what this is really about; re-read the title of this thread. One does not study the "science" of hooking up with girls at a club with a white lab coat and a clipboard. For one thing, the people that conduct those studies have probably never picked up a girl at a club...probably never even been to any clubs!

I'm not saying some of the points you've presented aren't valid, just that you're making an apple-oranges comparison. "Ladder Fool" probably doesn't have a PhD in Sociology, nor can his "facts" be backed up by laboratory-controlled experiments...but when it comes to how single women behave as related to "the big game" of dating/hooking up, he's got it dead right. The pie charts and such are for comedic efffect anyways, not to be taken literally.

Bad Boy tips from Monsieur Bréqs:

1. Before you express interest in her, let it be known (preferably through a friend) that you have "niche" sexual tastes. Even better, have a rep for an undisclosed (but slight) perversion. It makes them curious, and they actually want to find out. Make sure the only way they can find out is first-hand, so play your cards close to your chest. Don't let your friends call you "Sodomy Sam" or "Golden Shower Garry". When you nail a broad, you can request she keep your prediliction private - she probably will, particularly if it's degrading to women. If you don't have a "niche" sexual quirk, my best advice is surf the web until you develop one; preferably one that most women find slightly embarrassing (like buggery or light bondage), so they'll keep their mouths shut about it, thereby preserving the mystery.

2. Never buy a female nothing. I go to the bar, if she hints that she wants me to buy a drink, I outright ask her to buy me one first. 75% will cop an attitude, but the next time you meet 'em (even that same night), you've gone 10% up in their bad-boy books...

3. Get an interesting job. Join the military, or the CIA. Be a test-pilot. Professional mountain-biker... Whatever. Just don't be an insurance underwriter or a bank teller. Also, don't lie about this one. If you're busted even once, your credibility is shot. If you're actually an insurance underwriter, mention your hobbies instead.

4. Tell 'em straight that you're too interested in a bedding a variety of women to be monogamous... That you're interested in "open relationships".
1/3rd of females will take this as a challenge ("My pussy is so good he'll forget those other bitches...")
1/3 will be the commitment-crazed type and want nothing to do with you (and believe me, you want nothing to do with them).
The last 3rd will be cool with it, and they're probably relieved that you're not clingy.
No matter what, being up front about wanting to shag other females is a Win/Win/Win situation.

4.a. This applies to relationships too. I'm a lucky man; Adherance to point 4 is the primary reason I'm still hapily together with my current female; I'm allowed to shag other broads (providing she's along for the ride).

5. Don't be a pussy and fucking phone her the next day, even if you left your insulin and your work keys at her house. DON'T!

6. If you insist on a relationship, don't be all Mr. Romance from day 1. It's fucking impossible to keep up. I didn't buy my current female flowers until over 3 years into the relationship. When we started out, I refused to see her more than once a week for about a year - that way, today after 4+ years together, the default value for my evening is do my own thing. If you start out seeing your female too often, they'll expect more of your time. Even now, after 4 years, if she wants to hang on the weekend, we make plans - I know pussy-whipped dudes who have to make plans to NOT hang with their females on the weekends... Pathetic.

WE ALL SET THE STANDARD FOR THE WHOLE RELATIONSHIP IN THE BEGINNING. If you're a self-absorbed bastard, don't play Mr. Sensitive Pony-Tail at first and then revert after a few months - she'll be wondering where the "real you" went, not realizing that she's got the "real you" now. It's just a recipe for resentment.

7. Remember: A woman can get fucked any time she chooses (she just has to lower her standards). A man can find a relationship any time he chooses (he just has to lower his standards).

There's more, but I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll wake up my female and put a few of these points into action. Not likely though, because despite my attitude, she's a take-no-shit sorta broad, just the way I like 'em!!!

I guess my problem comes with it because I naturally do all those things that have been listed here. I used to be all meek and mild, but when I was about 20 I just decided to be more 'charismatic' and it works for me.
a classic quote from this weekend - a girl told my girlfriend "your man must have a huge cock, because he's so confident"
I don't see the logic in that myself, but it was funny.

You might say - 'well you are using ladder theory then' , but thats not the case. I am using confidence, not ladder theory. I don't go and undermine women for instance - that would be stupid.

my point is : my girlfriend (a burlesque dancer) fancied my 'nice guy' friend before I bludgeoned her off her feet with my charismatic monster cock. My nice guy friend simply didn't have the confidence to make a move. the observation that 'women seem to choose abusive and demeaning guys' is because 90% of men are fuckwits, theres a limited supply of nice guys who can actually entertain a woman and ask her for a fuck, nicely. Women have a limited choice.
As I said before, women choose partners from a variety of sources dependant on situation, 'bad boys' are simply one sector.

so, Ladder theory is not 'correct', merely that it makes use of commonly observed behaviours. You can't say because some component parts are true that it follows that the conclusion is also true. Additionally it is not true for all people.
Nice guys would finish equal with a large section of the female population if they learned how to confidently make the final move.
Once again - the component parts are true but the conclusion is false.

Lawyers have big cars, so to get a big car - you have to become a lawyer?

FWIW, IRL I'm of some note with my friends for having a nice girl or two in every urban area code of my home state (Texas). So, I guess I've been moderately "successful" with girls/women.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but most people with these elaborate seduction theories are losers, even if they do get laid a lot. They have to live with their own calculating, weak, cynical nature -- the whole thing amounts to cutting off the nose to spite the face.

My advice for anybody is just to be nice, be cool, be your unique self. You'll do fine if you're truly happy with who you are. Women are people too, they're not sex receptacles, and they're drawn to positive energy just like men are.

"the ladder theory answers the oft asked question, "What is the purpose of life?" The purpose of life is to move up the ladder"

No offense, but I've seen nothing but cereal box theories on this thread. "Have good breath", is about the dumbest and most obvious advice I've heard. If you are really serious about picking up women, I'd read Robert Greene's book "The Art Of Seduction" http://www.amazon.com/Art-Seduction-Rob ... F8&s=books
This is the definitive handbook for picking up women. His other books are fantastic as well.

I'd purchase 48 laws of power too. http://www.amazon.com/48-Laws-Power-Rob ... F8&s=books

Really, I'd take most of the advice on this thread as a grain of salt, they mostly sound like dumb generalizations to me.

You know it is friday...so i decide to resurrect an oldie goldie..make a good use of it!

Nice girls and clubs... isn't that a contradiction in terms?