Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:41 am

the problems with mostamerican people is that they don't judge by their common sense anymore, but by whether they LIKE somewone or something or not.

it's about the truth. we are talking about the truth. all other sidediscussion whether someone is nice or not or obsessed by money or not, is beside the question. those are empty arguments.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:50 am

if that's all they can come up with...

sensations you feel when looking at something beautiful are a human thing. why drag god into it or a higher force.

for people who tend to be creative minds etc. show very little imagination when it comes to clear thinking and finding answers to questions that actually make more sense and are much more simple in nature (or actually very much more complex) than dragging gods and unseen forces into play.

o read fairy tales IMO.

when you feel amazed when listening to music or seeing a work of art, why can't you people believe it is YOUwho made it or experiencing it. it is your brain that is finetuned to interprete or acknowledge a thing of beauty. it is YOU who give it sense, a meanin. without YOU there is nothing to show.

you should thank your brain and not god. ad don't come to with: look how amazing the brain is etc..' your brain is the result of an amazingly simple, yet so powerfull pfenomen called evolution. if i must call something god, it is the process of evolution, because it not only clailm Nature/biology/living matter. it is also responsible for what is and what is not in our universe.

that my friend is the closst thing to the 'power' you describe. it is there to understand, and there is nothing mystical about it. but the results of it are mindboggling.

i rst my case

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:58 am

Only read the 1st and last pages of this thread...

would just like to add, its all about your definition of "god"

I do not believe in the god that has become dogmatised, used to control people and instill fear etc...

I was bought up as an atheist, being told that after we die "thats it" just nothing. Anyway ... since growing up I have definitely become more spiritual, although not attached to any religion.

My point is this: to me real meaning of the word "God" represents the oneness that we are all part of, the void from which everything is created, the potential of reality. If you'll excuse the cheesyness - I see the root meaning of God as all the potential love in the universe, love being the creative force that brings things into unity and in so doing creates something new.

I think the common image of God as a being is just humanising, putting the image of ourselves onto our creator. The truth is, that we are all God, and God is within us all. (Just substitute the word God for One / Oneness and it might be more palatable).

Just my 2p.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:06 pm

shtreimel wrote:
BoimB son of BoB wrote:it says : you tell me about jew people first.

and let me correct that. you tell me about people who believe in the religion called jewism
Look, I shouldn't make fun of you because you don't know english. So let's drop this, huh? Nah, I'll tell you what "jew people" do in the name of "jewism". We:

1) Eat the blood of christian babies
2) Flew planes in the world trade center
3) Steal land from innocent arabs, because, well, we're just like that
4) Created a fiction called the Holocaust to secure funds and votes for a future state called Israel
5) Own most of hollywood and media in order to spread our message, that being, christian babies taste really, really good.

Other than that, we don't do very much.

shtreimel. i see no point in going into these matters as they are not in any way relevant for this discussion...

if you for one second think that that whatyou sarcasticly describe above is anything close to my personal thoughts about you or jewish people: you, my friend are very wrong.

i'm frustrated

you are frustrated.

at least we have that in common, apart from ous bing 99.99% identical beings, whether you like that or not.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:14 pm

elemental wrote:
My point is this: to me real meaning of the word "God" represents the oneness that we are all part of, the void from which everything is created, the potential of reality. If you'll excuse the cheesyness - I see the root meaning of God as all the potential love in the universe, love being the creative force that brings things into unity and in so doing creates something new.

I think the common image of God as a being is just humanising, putting the image of ourselves onto our creator. The truth is, that we are all God, and God is within us all. (Just substitute the word God for One / Oneness and it might be more palatable).

Just my 2p.

i do not see a lot of love in the universe. love is actually very sparse in the universe if you ask me (actually this planet would be more correct). love in the form we know it only makes sense for ous humans. read some biology books and you'll know why there is love. it's not as pretty though as your description, i agree. taht doesn't mean i don't feelwhat you mean cause i'm human too

the last paragraph is good for songs, poetry and stuff... it's nice you can beso creative about it. the Oneness you describe doesn't make much sense to me. ous being all te same material, i can understand. the rest is a bit gibberish...'let's hold each others hands and feel united'

yeah i can feel god alraedy

you have a romantic soul elemental, i give you that. respect.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:15 pm

shtreimel wrote:2) Flew planes in the world trade center

There were certainly a few happy Israelis that day
http://911research.com/sept11/israelispys.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

shlomo · Post by **shlomo** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:45 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote:you have a romantic soul elemental, i give you that. respect.

his observation is romantic as the phrase "we are all made of stars" (which is
bytheway SCIENTIFICLY correct).

@shtreimel;
if you feel opressed by dogmatiq christians do as Rabbi Rammi do; tell them that
it is really nice of them to speak about your relative(Yoshua Ben Yoseph) with such
dignity!

Peace!

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:11 pm

BoimB son of BoB wrote:
elemental wrote:
My point is this: to me real meaning of the word "God" represents the oneness that we are all part of, the void from which everything is created, the potential of reality. If you'll excuse the cheesyness - I see the root meaning of God as all the potential love in the universe, love being the creative force that brings things into unity and in so doing creates something new.

I think the common image of God as a being is just humanising, putting the image of ourselves onto our creator. The truth is, that we are all God, and God is within us all. (Just substitute the word God for One / Oneness and it might be more palatable).

Just my 2p.
i do not see a lot of love in the universe. love is actually very sparse in the universe if you ask me (actually this planet would be more correct). love in the form we know it only makes sense for ous humans. read some biology books and you'll know why there is love. it's not as pretty though as your description, i agree. taht doesn't mean i don't feelwhat you mean cause i'm human too

the last paragraph is good for songs, poetry and stuff... it's nice you can beso creative about it. the Oneness you describe doesn't make much sense to me. ous being all te same material, i can understand. the rest is a bit gibberish...'let's hold each others hands and feel united'

yeah i can feel god alraedy

you have a romantic soul elemental, i give you that. respect.

Fair enough. The love i'm talking about isnt necessarily "romantic" love, its the basic creative force in the universe.

And - if you dont see the Oneness, it is because your mind is thinking in material terms. You are seeing yourself as physically seperated from everything else. But there is a lot more to reality than the material. The material world is just what hits our senses. So most of us in our everyday life believe that is all there is. But there's a lot going on that we arent normally aware of. And if you break yourself and reality and existence down to its root, it is the One that we and all of existence are part of. There is a connection between you and I and every thing and being. (Excuse me if i'm getting out of my depth here!!!!!)

The problem with the world is that people are rationalising things too much and seeing themselves or their nation/race/religion as somehow different or better than the next. We're all brothers and sisters. But people get scared and walk the path of fear, cut themselves off from feeling, and see themselves as seperate from the "bad people" that they have decided are the cause of their fear.

Anyway, enough of the hippy philosphical talk. I got work to do.......

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:02 pm

elemental wrote:
Fair enough. The love i'm talking about isnt necessarily "romantic" love, its the basic creative force in the universe.

And - if you dont see the Oneness, it is because your mind is thinking in material terms. You are seeing yourself as physically seperated from everything else. But there is a lot more to reality than the material. The material world is just what hits our senses. So most of us in our everyday life believe that is all there is. But there's a lot going on that we arent normally aware of. And if you break yourself and reality and existence down to its root, it is the One that we and all of existence are part of. There is a connection between you and I and every thing and being. (Excuse me if i'm getting out of my depth here!!!!!)

The problem with the world is that people are rationalising things too much and seeing themselves or their nation/race/religion as somehow different or better than the next. We're all brothers and sisters. But people get scared and walk the path of fear, cut themselves off from feeling, and see themselves as seperate from the "bad people" that they have decided are the cause of their fear.

Anyway, enough of the hippy philosphical talk. I got work to do.......

look elemental. i'm not here to offend you, but i don't know how to say this more polite in your face than this: you are talking nonsense.

"You are seeing yourself as physically seperated from everything else."
YEP
"But there is a lot more to reality than the material"
indeed we still have the particle/wave 'duality'

or what do you have n mind more than material?
"But there's a lot going on that we arent normally aware of."
and what should that be? god playing poker? the thing i'm not aware of is my subconciousness...

"There is a connection between you and I and every thing and being."
oh yes there is, as a guy who knows something about molecular biology you would be surprised how similar the molecular blueprint from a worm and human are! acually the blueprints are all the same, that's why people investigate a worm to learn more about human physiology etc. but i guess that's not the link you have in mind

"...and seeing themselves or their nation/race/religion as somehow different or better than the next."

that's 'politics' IMO.

elemental · Post by **elemental** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:23 pm

No worries,
no offence taken ...

it makes sense to me - if it doesnt make sense to you, well, either I'm talking bollocks, or you cant see... I dont think I can make you see from where I'm sitting by writing a few paragraphs. At the end of the day, with stuff like this you either realise it or you don't.

The scientific stuff is interesting, but you have to remember that science deals with measurable physical phenomenon. The subject we're dealing with here doesnt really fall into that category.
BUT
The links you mention are still relevant, and show the connection on a physical level. But no, its not the connection i'm talking about.

fatrabbit · Post by **fatrabbit** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:38 pm

LOFA wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:I have to say, ( and I'm an atheist ), I really have never seen anybody confront Dawkins with the little problem of Stalin. Stalin killed millions and his religion was politics. Basically people will use anything to torture and kill each other, they will clan up in countless ways to separate themselves etc. I'm not at all against the idea of mankind eventually outgrowing religion, but I just don't see it happening any time soon. At this point in time, I just don't see mankind as emotionally evolved enough to abandon concepts like religion.

I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it, but I'm not convinced that Dawkin's approach is helping anything. The very title of the book makes sure that a good portion of the people he supposedly wants to drop their superstitions etc. are going to be immediately turned off, and will only read it with a confrontational attitude in order to tear it apart. First rule of debating someone whom you hope to win to your side is to gently attack their opinions, if you walk up to somebody and tell them, "you're a fool for believing what you do!" then all you're doing IMO is showing off for your kin.
You simply can't convert anybody to your way of thinking when you open the debate by calling them delusional.
I appreciate the Stalin reference. Makes a lot of sense. I can't say I disagree with you entirely, but as an borderline aethiest/agnostic American in the present, and while nothing in the full interview strikes me as thought provoking, I finf it very refreshing to hear the alternative extreme view. My first repsonse to the interview was thank god someone is saying this. At least I function well enough to realize how broken I am.

Your second from last sentence is worded funny.

To those that think Atheism leads to dispair (eg. a big black hole of nothing), I actually think that it is in fact quite the opposite (for me at least). As someone who isn't religious, you can make the most of now, you're not hoping and building your life around the notion of heaven/hell/another life.

And to Adonis (I think it was) who said earlier that you see people in power giving thanks to God - I would be slightly more cynical and say that at least of portion of these individuals are using their 'belief' in God, especially a particular religion, as a means of maintaining their power - eg. some politicians. And those that are successful and are atheist, usually don't talk about their belief, so the ones that do ("praise to God!" etc. when on stage) are much more noticable.

Meef Chaloin · Post by **Meef Chaloin** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:45 pm

It tends to be americans that do all that 'praise the lord' stuff when winning something, you dont see it so much in europe for example.

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:03 pm

elemental wrote:No worries,
The subject we're dealing with here doesnt really fall into that category.

i understand were you are headed. but what subject are we dealing with exactly , and in what category would you put it. and why would you think there is a category like that. how sure are you the subject you're dealing with is your mind inventing this stuff up.

what's the most probable answer out there? : you believing in fairytale (excusé le mot) like forces that are connected to all things etc etc ... or you just inventing this stuff to describe your wishfull thinking abou tthe world. come on now. break out of it. the world won't be less prety. on the contrary...

pilcrow · Post by **pilcrow** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:09 pm

On the subject of morality having arisen from evolution-- I haven't read a lot about this, but can someone here summarize what Dawkins and others say about how things like altruism come through evolution? If evolution is all about preserving my genes--making sure they make it safely through the next generation--then why would I risk my life to save a stranger, or a stranger's baby? Why wouldn't any such character "flaws" have been siphoned out of the gene pool eons ago, so that we could all become the rat bastards we need to be in order to prevail?

BoimB son of BoB · Post by **BoimB son of BoB** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:12 pm

Meef Chaloin wrote:It tends to be americans that do all that 'praise the lord' stuff when winning something, you dont see it so much in europe for example.

yeah maybe that's it.

i hear elemental talking about how nice stuff is and about how conncted we all are. and i think by myself:

hey, i appreciate sme people see all the good, there is a lot of good intentions in people.

but i can safely say it is easy to draw another picture of the world that ain't so pretty.

yet living in one of the most welfaring regions of the world (no not dubai), people here just don't believe. certainly not in a organized religion. they are totaly out of that. for the most part. and somehow i don't see them returning, ever.

the church (catholic church) is pulling out all the tricks in the bag. but that's scares away the old people

, the only ones still attending a sunday church blabla.

i can't complain