Ableton Forum

chrysalis33rpm wrote:

JahGuide wrote:

chrysalis33rpm wrote:
Do you think a black african has more legitimacy to claim hip hop than a white new yorker?

YES.

OK, so why?

Simple black people all over the world are connected to each other. Also whites did not create Hip Hop or any forms of black expression. Don't forget the roots of our rhythm comes from Africa hence the similarity of black expression around the world. I didn't say whites shouldn't have anything to do with Black Music. Just know your place. Respect its origins and give respect and credit where it is due.

JahGuide wrote:

knotkranky wrote:

JahGuide wrote:
YES.

Are black music labels with white artists committing treason?

Treason? Haha. The point is I cant go to Japan learn how to play the Shamisen and behave as if the Japanese had nothing to do with my development. Imagine me not giving any respect or credit to the Japanese. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp. Superiority Complex maybe. The inferior ones created something you like?

Well, I have noticed many people over the last few pages giving a lot of apreciation to black artists...but if it wasn't clear enough, let me say (as a white man) MAD PROPS to Little Richard, Chuck D, George Clinton, Muddy Waters, ROBERT JOHNSON, Grand Wizard Theodore, Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Bob Marley, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Dinah Washinton, Dizzy Gilespie, Charlie Parker, Ninah Simone, etc., etc.! I would not and could not be who I am today without the influence of these great great artists.

JahGuide wrote:

chrysalis33rpm wrote:

JahGuide wrote:
YES.

OK, so why?

Simple black people all over the world are connected to each other. Also whites did not create Hip Hop or any forms of black expression. Don't forget the roots of our rhythm comes from Africa hence the similarity of black expression around the world. I didn't say whites shouldn't have anything to do with Black Music. Just know your place. Respect its origins and give respect and credit where it is due.

Ok, I buy that.

I find any argument trying to claim that the white race has not stolen from the black race to be completely ridiculous and actually reflects the depth of the racial bias towards blacks. Perhaps its difficult to articulate the names of specific white artitsts who stole from blacks because its not in the social conciousness to actually think in those terms. To this day, black people continue to be oppressed, whether it be through racial profiling, disproportionate AIDS rates, employment opportunities, salaries, and even in the appropriation and commercialization of hip-hop.

The OP frames the issue in a misleading way, basically saying that if you can't come up with a specific example, then the idea of white people musically stealing from blacks is somehow undermined. Then OP attempts to distinguish between stealing a song and stealing an entire form or style of music, with the latter somehow being somewhat less significant. All this, based on the characterization that DJAdonis statement somehow amounts to a racist statement.

On one hand, OP's statments are valid. It may be hard to think of specific acts of theft - but then again its kind of hard to think of any specific acts about a topic one is not well versed in, and I'm going to assume that few people are actually well educated on this topic, with the exception of blacks. And there is a difference between stealing a song and stealing a style - but maybe the difference is negligble, or even worse since stealing a song does not de facto amount to denying the black community their cultural heritage (the difference is that stealing a song is like stealing property, while stealing a style is kind of difficult since musical styles are considered public domain; but property laws in the states were developed to serve the interest of one group only - rich, white men). So, while being valid, the OP's original statements are valid in so far as they reflect the prevaling, dominant social norm, a norm which has always and continues to harm the balck community.

nathannn wrote:

kb420 wrote:With the constant threat of terrorism in America right now, you would think that black and white folks that have been fighting like cats and dogs for centuries now would come to some new understanding and appreciation for each other.

I thought that was something good that actaully came out of 9/11. It seemed like it for a while, but it didn't last. Now eveyone is back to the hate that has made this country what it is.

i dont want to hate anyone SEROUSLY!
i do however get fed up with "The white man stole from me" shit
or "blacks are still slaves" thats racism right there.
i dont owe any race anything.

Well I do hate something.

I hate Eurocentric Ideology, and we are living in a world full of it.

This thread started because of the other thread about Timbaland. A lot of people were bad mouthin' him, and calling him all kinds of stuff.

Well let me explain what it is that I hate:



Let me start by asking you a simple question:

Who discovered America?


I am sure at least 9 out of 10 people will say that it was Christopher Columbus. Hey, that's what I was taught in school. They even had a rap about it:

"In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue."

Or something like that. But the thing is, if there were already people here, he didn't discover anything, besides the fact that maybe he was lost. As a child, being taught that Columbus discovered America when there were already people here is a whole lot worse than sampling someone's beat, and saying you made it. The reason why it's worse, is because it teaches a child of any race that nothing exist unless it is recognized and acknowledged by Europeans, and it's still being taught that way today.

That's Eurocentric Ideology, and that's bullshit!!!!!!!!!!


Peace and Love Brother.

I'm out!!!!!!!!!

JahGuide wrote:Blacks artistic expressions have hijacked fro day one. ITS stealing when you are your race pretend you created the art form you practice without giving respect where it is due, respect to its origins. The idea that blacks invented something SCARES the shit out of white people. Why? It negates the idea that we are inferior and whats more terrifying than that to white people. When was the last time you heard blacks given credit for house, techno etc. To mention that shit alone will fuck with your superiority complex on so many levels. For example I was reading a magazine the other day that said Phil Spector invented Dub Music. Can you believe that shit? Phil Spector not King Tubby invented Dub. Do you know how serous that statement is, that Phil Spector may have invented Dub Music. Whats next Bach may have invented Rap, Reggae etc.

so what are you proposing here?
every time a white person makes an album with drums or bass we credit every single black man that you feel invented modern music?
are you wanting our royaly checks also?
shit, we are in serious debt to you people!
thank you so much black man for inventing modern music
please black man find it in your heart to let me keep on existing and making music that your people invented.

nathannn wrote:

JahGuide wrote:Blacks artistic expressions have hijacked fro day one. ITS stealing when you are your race pretend you created the art form you practice without giving respect where it is due, respect to its origins. The idea that blacks invented something SCARES the shit out of white people. Why? It negates the idea that we are inferior and whats more terrifying than that to white people. When was the last time you heard blacks given credit for house, techno etc. To mention that shit alone will fuck with your superiority complex on so many levels. For example I was reading a magazine the other day that said Phil Spector invented Dub Music. Can you believe that shit? Phil Spector not King Tubby invented Dub. Do you know how serous that statement is, that Phil Spector may have invented Dub Music. Whats next Bach may have invented Rap, Reggae etc.

so what are you proposing here?
every time a white person makes an album with drums or bass we credit every single black man that you feel invented modern music?
are you wanting our royaly checks also?
shit, we are in serious debt to you people!
thank you so much black man for inventing modern music
please black man find it in your heart to let me keep on existing and making music that your people invented.

You are very welcome. White man. Thanks for creating Ableton Live too.

kb420 wrote:

nathannn wrote:

kb420 wrote:With the constant threat of terrorism in America right now, you would think that black and white folks that have been fighting like cats and dogs for centuries now would come to some new understanding and appreciation for each other.

I thought that was something good that actaully came out of 9/11. It seemed like it for a while, but it didn't last. Now eveyone is back to the hate that has made this country what it is.

i dont want to hate anyone SEROUSLY!
i do however get fed up with "The white man stole from me" shit
or "blacks are still slaves" thats racism right there.
i dont owe any race anything.

Well I do hate something.

I hate Eurocentric Ideology, and we are living in a world full of it.

This thread started because of the other thread about Timbaland. A lot of people were bad mouthin' him, and calling him all kinds of stuff.

Well let me explain what it is that I hate:



Let me start by asking you a simple question:

Who discovered America?


I am sure at least 9 out of 10 people will say that it was Christopher Columbus. Hey, that's what I was taught in school. They even had a rap about it:

"In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue."

Or something like that. But the thing is, if there were already people here, he didn't discover anything, besides the fact that maybe he was lost. As a child, being taught that Columbus discovered America when there were already people here is a whole lot worse than sampling someone's beat, and saying you made it. The reason why it's worse, is because it teaches a child of any race that nothing exist unless it is recognized and acknowledged by Europeans, and it's still being taught that way today.

That's Eurocentric Ideology, and that's bullshit!!!!!!!!!!


Peace and Love Brother.

I'm out!!!!!!!!!

ok i so your point is, since Christopher Columbus is the person credited for discovering America its ok for Timbaland to steal music because he is black.
thanks i will now donate my last paycheck to the uncf

chrysalis33rpm wrote:

b0unce wrote:

chrysalis33rpm wrote: I sample a couple bars of some obscure black 70s funk guitar and combine it with beats...am I ripping some black man off, or giving props?

How do you make the call?

what do you think ?

Hey, I asked you first

To me, it depends on whether you're true to the game, deep in the feel, respectful of the history of the music...and numerous other qualifiers which are difficult to certify, but, you know it when you feel it!

Its the difference between sampling and stealing - a fuzzy area. But a couple bars of a funk guitar is different from incorporating someone elses song into your own. But its a good question - when does sampling become stealing? And, if you release your music to the world, how can you even claim to own it in the first place? "Its gone, in the air, and you can never capture it again..."

Honestly, I think that the measure shouldn't be quantitative, i.e. what you actually use, but rather qualitative - how you use what your using. Like El-P on the front page of this site says, he uses ableton to re-arrange notes and transform the original smaple into something competely unrecognizable and new. That's where my measure lies anyway - creating something new with whatever material you have.

To that end, did Timbaland create something new? Did he re-arrange the sounds in a different way? Did he create (innovate), or merely plagarize and take someone elses work and claiming it as your own?

steve-o wrote:

chrysalis33rpm wrote:

b0unce wrote: what do you think ?

Hey, I asked you first

To me, it depends on whether you're true to the game, deep in the feel, respectful of the history of the music...and numerous other qualifiers which are difficult to certify, but, you know it when you feel it!

Its the difference between sampling and stealing - a fuzzy area. But a couple bars of a funk guitar is different from incorporating someone elses song into your own. But its a good question - when does sampling become stealing? And, if you release your music to the world, how can you even claim to own it in the first place? "Its gone, in the air, and you can never capture it again..."

Honestly, I think that the measure shouldn't be quantitative, i.e. what you actually use, but rather qualitative - how you use what your using. Like El-P on the front page of this site says, he uses ableton to re-arrange notes and transform the original smaple into something competely unrecognizable and new. That's where my measure lies anyway - creating something new with whatever material you have.

To that end, did Timbaland create something new? Did he re-arrange the sounds in a different way? Did he create (innovate), or merely plagarize and take someone elses work and claiming it as your own?

hmm when does sampling become stealing..well lets see, from what i remember the law says if you use any piece of some one elses music WITH OUT PERMISSION it is considered stealing.
so according to the law HE STOLE!

JahGuide wrote:

nathannn wrote:

JahGuide wrote:Blacks artistic expressions have hijacked fro day one. ITS stealing when you are your race pretend you created the art form you practice without giving respect where it is due, respect to its origins. The idea that blacks invented something SCARES the shit out of white people. Why? It negates the idea that we are inferior and whats more terrifying than that to white people. When was the last time you heard blacks given credit for house, techno etc. To mention that shit alone will fuck with your superiority complex on so many levels. For example I was reading a magazine the other day that said Phil Spector invented Dub Music. Can you believe that shit? Phil Spector not King Tubby invented Dub. Do you know how serous that statement is, that Phil Spector may have invented Dub Music. Whats next Bach may have invented Rap, Reggae etc.

so what are you proposing here?
every time a white person makes an album with drums or bass we credit every single black man that you feel invented modern music?
are you wanting our royaly checks also?
shit, we are in serious debt to you people!
thank you so much black man for inventing modern music
please black man find it in your heart to let me keep on existing and making music that your people invented.

You are very welcome. White man. Thanks for creating Ableton Live too.

Good answer.

Yeah, well, sampling laws are fucking dumb.

nathannn wrote:

steve-o wrote:

chrysalis33rpm wrote: Hey, I asked you first

To me, it depends on whether you're true to the game, deep in the feel, respectful of the history of the music...and numerous other qualifiers which are difficult to certify, but, you know it when you feel it!

Its the difference between sampling and stealing - a fuzzy area. But a couple bars of a funk guitar is different from incorporating someone elses song into your own. But its a good question - when does sampling become stealing? And, if you release your music to the world, how can you even claim to own it in the first place? "Its gone, in the air, and you can never capture it again..."

Honestly, I think that the measure shouldn't be quantitative, i.e. what you actually use, but rather qualitative - how you use what your using. Like El-P on the front page of this site says, he uses ableton to re-arrange notes and transform the original smaple into something competely unrecognizable and new. That's where my measure lies anyway - creating something new with whatever material you have.

To that end, did Timbaland create something new? Did he re-arrange the sounds in a different way? Did he create (innovate), or merely plagarize and take someone elses work and claiming it as your own?

hmm when does sampling become stealing..well lets see, from what i remember the law says if you use any piece of some one elses music WITH OUT PERMISSION it is considered stealing.
so according to the law HE STOLE!

Oh, come on, the law is obviously struggling to catch up to this issue. I don't know anything about Timbaland, but you can't really appeal to copyright law with any kind of legitimacy on this forum!

nathannn wrote:

kb420 wrote:

nathannn wrote: i dont want to hate anyone SEROUSLY!
i do however get fed up with "The white man stole from me" shit
or "blacks are still slaves" thats racism right there.
i dont owe any race anything.

Well I do hate something.

I hate Eurocentric Ideology, and we are living in a world full of it.

This thread started because of the other thread about Timbaland. A lot of people were bad mouthin' him, and calling him all kinds of stuff.

Well let me explain what it is that I hate:



Let me start by asking you a simple question:

Who discovered America?


I am sure at least 9 out of 10 people will say that it was Christopher Columbus. Hey, that's what I was taught in school. They even had a rap about it:

"In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue."

Or something like that. But the thing is, if there were already people here, he didn't discover anything, besides the fact that maybe he was lost. As a child, being taught that Columbus discovered America when there were already people here is a whole lot worse than sampling someone's beat, and saying you made it. The reason why it's worse, is because it teaches a child of any race that nothing exist unless it is recognized and acknowledged by Europeans, and it's still being taught that way today.

That's Eurocentric Ideology, and that's bullshit!!!!!!!!!!


Peace and Love Brother.

I'm out!!!!!!!!!

ok i so your point is, since Christopher Columbus is the person credited for discovering America its ok for Timbaland to steal music because he is black.
thanks i will now donate my last paycheck to the uncf

No that's not his point, and you know that, so don't try to undermine his point but framing it as a Eurocentric is bad --> Timbaland stealing is okay. His point is illustrating the deeply rooted conceptual bias towards any community that the status quo - Eurocentric, White, Male - either competes with or feels threatened by.

Whether or not you feel that you owe a race anything is up to you. But as memebers of the status quo, white people generally avail themselves of the benefits of society, while avoiding many of the barriers and obstacles that blacks face. Case in point: Phil Spector being credited with the creation of dub gets realtively little notice, while Timabland generates pages and pages of threads in this forum alone, youtube videos, and all this controversy. So, to put it in perspective, Timbaland'd indiscretion is tiny compared to what the black community has faced and continues to face for hundreds of years.

where can i get a crack for Treason 3.0?