yet another rant about time signature automation

[leisuremuffin]

yeah, of course it is.

i'll prove it to you:


do not change the tempo at all during this excercise.

record a track with guitar, vocal, whatever you want.

now, make a copy of your clip and put it on another track.

turn warp off on one of the clips. leave it on on the other.

put a utility plug in on one of your tracks and flip the phase.




what is the result?




.lm.

how about this: have a vocalist you just recorded ask 'why does my voice sound all choppy like that?' to which you respond, 'you hear that, too?' then take the warping off and you both say, 'oh, yeah, that's much better.' or play guitar and hear that it stutters or feels digitally stretched, take off the warping and it sounds fine. i'm not the first person on this board to notice that warping still affects sounds, even at the native tempo, so don't pretend like i'm making it up. if you can't hear it then, like i said, bad ears.

nope, i don't unless the tempo is changed and i can assure you there is nothing wrong with my ears, kid. Try the experiment before you post another word about it.




.lm.

i'm sorry that's actually unfair, you could also post a live set where warp affects a clip at the same tempo with no markers. otherwise you're just talking shit.



.lm.

[mbenigni]

Crikey, this thread is getting unnecessarily hot again.

There's no point in questioning how common 11 over 5 over 4 is, and by a good margin even less of a point arguing over whether you like it. I can see where localhost's point here is totally legit:

Set the tempo of the 4/4 to 15/16 to be 90 bpm, then tell me if '1 bar' is unnecessary. At some tempo, it become tricky to nail that 1/16 note.

I still think you'd run into some logistical issues in getting Live to do something that would be intuitive and predictable to everyone in polyrythmic scenarios. So you'd probably wind up with a rather complex UI to try to support n-bar launch quantize when "bar" means 2 or 3 different things at once. Maybe the best solution here is launch quantize expressed strictly as number of beats?

snowtires, I see where you're coming from now re: scoring in the arrangement view. Simply not part of my requirements, but I get it now.

[hoffman2k]

Ah this again

Some remarks concerning unwarped playing
for warpmodes when the file tempo equals song tempo:

Unfortunately there is currently no indicator in the gui when
file tempo or song tempo are cut of after the second decimal.
So they might well differ a small amount, even though they
seem to be equal. This is what i assume to
be the case shown in the video.

In fact, even for such small differences in the tempo
this will not immediatly lead to warping for most warp modes,
they propably will make a different decision as to what grain
is played at some points but for most of the time will just
play unwarped with a constant sample offset resulting
from such decision.

There seems to be a quirk in the "tones" warper that
causes such an offset quite from the beginning.

"Repitch" starts pitching the sample to accomodate the
small tempo difference, and in effect diverts
more and more from the unwarped sample.

"Complex" mode is different from all others in that it
does no "grained" playing of the existing material.
It performs a time base analysis and transformation
of the input material. Furthermore "complex" also
does the resampling necessary for
sample rate conversion. In effect it diverts in almost all
cases from the "unwarped" sample.

Independed of the above i experienced single sample
offsets (from jitter) between warped and unwarped after subsequent
starting and stopping with "Shift+Space".

For the time being (meaning as long as there are no
envelopes for unwarped clips, no "clip tempo to song tempo" button)
i suggest the workaround:
- use more or less integral clip tempo
(equaling song tempo, naturally)
- use beats mode

I hope this was helpful,

regards, ingo

[snowtires]

Ah this again

Some remarks concerning unwarped playing
for warpmodes when the file tempo equals song tempo:

Unfortunately there is currently no indicator in the gui when
file tempo or song tempo are cut of after the second decimal.
So they might well differ a small amount, even though they
seem to be equal. This is what i assume to
be the case shown in the video.

In fact, even for such small differences in the tempo
this will not immediatly lead to warping for most warp modes,
they propably will make a different decision as to what grain
is played at some points but for most of the time will just
play unwarped with a constant sample offset resulting
from such decision.

There seems to be a quirk in the "tones" warper that
causes such an offset quite from the beginning.

"Repitch" starts pitching the sample to accomodate the
small tempo difference, and in effect diverts
more and more from the unwarped sample.

"Complex" mode is different from all others in that it
does no "grained" playing of the existing material.
It performs a time base analysis and transformation
of the input material. Furthermore "complex" also
does the resampling necessary for
sample rate conversion. In effect it diverts in almost all
cases from the "unwarped" sample.

Independed of the above i experienced single sample
offsets (from jitter) between warped and unwarped after subsequent
starting and stopping with "Shift+Space".

For the time being (meaning as long as there are no
envelopes for unwarped clips, no "clip tempo to song tempo" button)
i suggest the workaround:
- use more or less integral clip tempo
(equaling song tempo, naturally)
- use beats mode

I hope this was helpful,

regards, ingo

sooooooo... i'm right/not crazy?

[j0shu@]

-i would like to see some more time sig based automation as well.

-weird time signatures are often annoying to me, but 3/4 waltzes are where its at.

-use repitch if you are at the same tempo, it sounds better.

[leisuremuffin]

-use repitch if you are at the same tempo, it sounds better.

if by better, you mean exactly the same as beats, texture or tones, you're absolutely correct.


.lm.

[Tone Deft]

sooooooo... i'm right/not crazy?

sooooooo you don't know what you're talking about, do you? All this pissing and moaning and you have to ask?? Dude, you're raising all kinds of noise about this but you admittedly don't know what's up.

[Dominik]

I love king crimson, and i'm pretty positive that there isn't anything like 13/16 or 15/16 in their body of work.


.lm.

i think there is... is it not just plane 16,
or is the topic about a 3/5 beat?

is a 5/4 played in 4/4 not a little bit faster than a 4/4 in a 4/4 ?
where are the accents. that's the question.

[leisuremuffin]

sooooooo... i'm right/not crazy?

sooooooo you don't know what you're talking about, do you? All this pissing and moaning and you have to ask?? Dude, you're raising all kinds of noise about this but you admittedly don't know what's up.

i guess he didn't really read the thing from ingo whichs says the same thing that i'm saying.


anyway if anybody want to talk about the sound quality thing go here so these chaps can continue about time sigs:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 351#501351



.lm.

[snowtires]

sooooooo... i'm right/not crazy?

sooooooo you don't know what you're talking about, do you? All this pissing and moaning and you have to ask?? Dude, you're raising all kinds of noise about this but you admittedly don't know what's up.

i've said before, i don't use warping 99% of the time. all i know is that when it's on, it still affects the sound. as far as i can tell, that post supports my theory. even if i had ABSOLUTELY no clue about warping (i do know what it does, how to use it, but i don't use it much so i'm sorry if i'm not up on all of the lingo), you really don't haven't to know what it does to HEAR that it's doing something when it shouldn't.

[leisuremuffin]

I love king crimson, and i'm pretty positive that there isn't anything like 13/16 or 15/16 in their body of work.


.lm.

i think there is... is it not just plane 16,
or is the topic about a 3/5 beat?

is a 5/4 played in 4/4 not a little bit faster.
where are the accents. that's the question.

uhhhhm, i'm confused, but no, a bar 5/4 would just be a beat longer at the same tempo. Also, an odd thing in live is that tempo is always 1/4 = the beat so even a sig like 2/2, which should be twice as fast as 4/4 in the same tempo is not.


.lm.

[Tone Deft]

i've said before, i don't use warping 99% of the time. all i know is that when it's on, it still affects the sound. as far as i can tell, that post supports my theory. even if i had ABSOLUTELY no clue about warping (i do know what it does, how to use it, but i don't use it much so i'm sorry if i'm not up on all of the lingo), you really don't haven't to know what it does to HEAR that it's doing something when it shouldn't.

There are incorrect statements in that post, go to lm's thread for some background info.

My concern that is when people start SHOUTING that this or that is broken when it's NOT then others will believe it. The strength with which you argue a point should be backed up with knowlege of the subject.

[leisuremuffin]

i read ingo's post and it says that every warp mode other than complex is the same as unwarped at the exact same tempo. He does not that if the tempo is very slightly differnt there will be divergence and that in some rare cases the audio can be offset by one sample (which means it will be a sample late in time, quality of the wave is exactly the same).


i don't know what snowtires read.




.lm.

[snowtires]

i've said before, i don't use warping 99% of the time. all i know is that when it's on, it still affects the sound. as far as i can tell, that post supports my theory. even if i had ABSOLUTELY no clue about warping (i do know what it does, how to use it, but i don't use it much so i'm sorry if i'm not up on all of the lingo), you really don't haven't to know what it does to HEAR that it's doing something when it shouldn't.

There are incorrect statements in that post, go to lm's thread for some background info.

My concern that is when people start SHOUTING that this or that is broken when it's NOT then others will believe it. The strength with which you argue a point should be backed up with knowlege of the subject.

what i'm confused about with this statement is why i have to know everything about warping if i don't use it. what i do know is that (or, at least, is my understanding from reading the live manual) warping is in place to make clips stay in time with the master tempo. if you have something warped and then slow the master tempo, the warped clips will slow to match. easy enough. what i have noticed, however, is that when something i record (in perfect time with the click) gets the 'warp' thrown on it, which is an option i would just love to turn off completely, during playback, there is a digital artifacting in the recorded audio, that only disappears when warping is turned off. the tempo in the clip and the master tempo of the song are the same, yet the clip is warping.

[Dominik]

uhhhhm, i'm confused...

.lm.

sorry, i edited my post in btw.
since music is also poly rhythm what is the meaning of poly?
each voice (clip) can have his independent tempo.
they all together played in one tempo... even it change.
in one tempo a 7/4 is slower then a 9/4.
a 9/8 is just the half of a 9/4 clip...