Eno Quote

[EgAD]

not being totally enamoured by the new is exactly what i'm talking about, and i think it's not an accurate analogy comparing the old tech vs. new tech argument with generative music or generative performance, I call that being too enamoured.

I am not making the case here that old rock and roll is better than new, I'm saying that those people who want to be computers and cyborgs should do so and those people who want to sit in the cockpit of a space ship should do so, but making music is an entirely different thing. it just doesn't make any sense to put someone down for sampling other peoples breaks on one hand and then let a computer write your music for you on the other.

I can agree with this

In the end, I think its about using whatever tool speaks to you at the moment, remaining flexible, and focussing on the end result as much as on the act of creation

[chrysalis33rpm]

I understand where you are coming from I think Egad. I'd just add that the process of setting up generative music becomes an act of performance itself.

[impete]

If I understand from what Pete is saying we can now build these type of tools and apply them to other musical concepts more closely aligned to traditional type sequencing/arranging.

I suppose it might help you to know that the script-enabled noatikl actually got released ... just yesterday... so you can now actually play with it yourself if you want.

I'd just add that the process of setting up generative music becomes an act of performance itself.

Yes, that is exactly right. The artist is still making decisions here, it is just that the decisions are at a different level of detail that that of a traditional composer. It is an approach that offers a real freedom, but equally you have to become used to a loss of control over your musical children, which in itself can be very liberating. At the very least, it offers a change of musical scenery once in a while!

Koan (the engine that predated noatikl) was used for a lot of installations by various artists, for example http://www.vimeo.com/darksymphony, which was a big generative music collaboration at Ars Electronica by a number of artists, including Brian Eno, Tim Didymus and others.

Pete

[EgAD]

yes but they weren't collabing with each other, it was the program collabing with itself, if that's what you call liberating, then enslave me please.
it's so strange on this forum to go from 'who is honestly playing Live' to ' liberate yourself let the computer write music for you' its just bewildering.
the thing is that I actualy like all of these concepts and find alot of personal intrest in them but like already posted, I think everything has it's place and time and I don't feel that this stuff can share the same space and time with actualy writing music. I don't care if you never went to music school and don't know an b flat from your elbow, for *petes sake* do it yourself.

[chrysalis33rpm]

yes but they weren't collabing with each other, it was the program collabing with itself, if that's what you call liberating, then enslave me please.
it's so strange on this forum to go from 'who is honestly playing Live' to ' liberate yourself let the computer write music for you' its just bewildering.
the thing is that I actualy like all of these concepts and find alot of personal intrest in them but like already posted, I think everything has it's place and time and I don't feel that this stuff can share the same space and time with actualy writing music. I don't care if you never went to music school and don't know an b flat from your elbow, for *petes sake* do it yourself.

The computer doesn't do *anything* by itself- including 'collaborate' with other machines. This is ridiculous. If you did have a computer capable of 'collaborating' with other computers, that would be truly news-worthy.

If you don't like a style - fine. But don't sit here and tell me its invalid as music. I would have thought that was over after Chuck Berry, then again after hip hop.

[impete]

yes but they weren't collabing with each other

Sorry if my point wasn't clear.

The point I wanted to make was that there are actually a lot of artists making music generatively; even if it is not in the "mainstream" whatever that is. The Dark Symphony project was just an example (a pretty impressive one, though..!)

With best wishes,

Pete

[rasputin]

A tool like noatikl is difficult to explain to people used to more traditional ways of making music. "Generative" and "hyperinstrument" aren't words that many people often think about.

Hi Pete,
you may be interested to see how it is possible to make Generative music in Ableton Live

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68184
it's very hacky and a bit limited of course

I'll investigate your product, I notice your scripting is in Lua, which is handy as I've been meaning to investigate that for a while.

And the spiral comes around again.

I was fascinated with and used Koan for several years. Licensed used for up to v. 2.7 when SSEYO sort of folded (apparently). I need to go to the intermorphic site and see what the developers have been up to since then.

I always wished for an inexpensive device like the Buddha Machine with some algorithms in it, (that you could change, of course) a couple knobs on it that you could use to change parameters on the algorithms such that it could generate an infinite variety of generative tunes...solar and/or hand crank powered ideally!

I experimented quite a bit with Angstrom's generative sets. There's a lot more possibility than you'd think. For instance I created some credible kick, snare, tom and hi hat sounds just using Live's audio tools.

I had to wait unti I had a somewhat faster computer before I could really stretch out...anyway, check it out. Interesting thread.

[EgAD]

yes but they weren't collabing with each other, it was the program collabing with itself, if that's what you call liberating, then enslave me please.
it's so strange on this forum to go from 'who is honestly playing Live' to ' liberate yourself let the computer write music for you' its just bewildering.
the thing is that I actualy like all of these concepts and find alot of personal intrest in them but like already posted, I think everything has it's place and time and I don't feel that this stuff can share the same space and time with actualy writing music. I don't care if you never went to music school and don't know an b flat from your elbow, for *petes sake* do it yourself.

The computer doesn't do *anything* by itself- including 'collaborate' with other machines. This is ridiculous. If you did have a computer capable of 'collaborating' with other computers, that would be truly news-worthy.

If you don't like a style - fine. But don't sit here and tell me its invalid as music. I would have thought that was over after Chuck Berry, then again after hip hop.

chrysalis33rpm I never said it was invalid as music, computers can make music, programs can make music, just don't tell me that you made it. and now are you telling me generative is the name of a *style* of music? dude c'mon you are reaching, in my humble opinion generative is the *method* what style it is is up to the computer therefore anybodys guess.

[chrysalis33rpm]

yes but they weren't collabing with each other, it was the program collabing with itself, if that's what you call liberating, then enslave me please.
it's so strange on this forum to go from 'who is honestly playing Live' to ' liberate yourself let the computer write music for you' its just bewildering.
the thing is that I actualy like all of these concepts and find alot of personal intrest in them but like already posted, I think everything has it's place and time and I don't feel that this stuff can share the same space and time with actualy writing music. I don't care if you never went to music school and don't know an b flat from your elbow, for *petes sake* do it yourself.

The computer doesn't do *anything* by itself- including 'collaborate' with other machines. This is ridiculous. If you did have a computer capable of 'collaborating' with other computers, that would be truly news-worthy.

If you don't like a style - fine. But don't sit here and tell me its invalid as music. I would have thought that was over after Chuck Berry, then again after hip hop.

chrysalis33rpm I never said it was invalid as music, computers can make music, programs can make music, just don't tell me that you made it. and now are you telling me generative is the name of a *style* of music? dude c'mon you are reaching, in my humble opinion generative is the *method* what style it is is up to the computer therefore anybodys guess.

OK fair enough I misunderstood what you meant. There is definitely an additional degree of abstraction involved. And you're right about the method/style distinction...

[impete]

in my humble opinion generative is the *method* what style it is is up to the computer therefore anybodys guess.

Absolutely - "generative" is an approach. But the style the computer composes in, is dictated by a combination of the artist's inputs, and the capabilities of the generative engine in question. For example, Eno is an expert at generative ambient music and soundscapes. Tim Didymus creates drum and bass amongst other styles. Jamuud of Loop Guru happens to use noatikl to create Gamelan music!

One of the interesting things about Dark Symphony, is being able to tell which pieces were done by which artists; in that part of their personality (or approach to music) comes through in what you hear, even though the fine details of the composition in question are handled by the computer.

With best wishes,

Pete

[impete]

I was fascinated with and used Koan for several years. Licensed used for up to v. 2.7 when SSEYO sort of folded (apparently). I need to go to the intermorphic site and see what the developers have been up to since then.

Well, SSEYO got acquired by Tao Group when our funding collapsed [2002], and development of Koan pretty much stopped at that point, as we developed mobile audio frameworks for Tao. Tao Group in turn folded several years later [2007] when their own funding collapsed, and Koan went under with it!

When we lost our jobs last year, Tim and I co-founded intermorphic, and created first liptikl and then noatikl entirely from scratch. This time round, we intend to stay entirely independent so that we can continue to pursue our passion for generative tools!

Thanks for your interest, and with best wishes,

Pete

[impete]

unfortunately I don't think 20 years from now that people will be looking back on our music and saying anything, not if we don't put enough into the songs themselves.

Yes, a very good point!

Here is an interesting quote from Eno himself that relates interestingly to your quote, and of course to this whole thread too ... ...

He made this quote back in 1996 when we released his title "Generative Music 1 with SSEYO Koan Software".

Brian Eno, 1996:

Some very basic forms of generative music have existed for a long time, but as marginal curiosities. Wind chimes are an example, but the only compositional control you have over the music they produce is in the original choice of notes that the chimes will sound. Recently, however, out of the union of synthesisers and computers, some much finer tools have evolved. Koan Software is probably the best of these systems, allowing a composer to control not one but one hundred and fifty musical and sonic parameters within which the computer then improvises (as wind improvises the wind chimes).

The works I have made with this system symbolise to me the beginning of a new era of music. Until 100 years ago, every musical event was unique: music was ephemeral and unrepeatable and even classical scoring couldn't guarantee precise duplication. Then came the gramophone record, which captured particular performances and made it possible to hear them identically over and over again.

But now there are three alternatives: live music, recorded music and generative music. Generative music enjoys some of the benefits of both its ancestors. Like live music it is always different. Like recorded music it is free of time-and-place limitations - you can hear it when and where you want.

I really think it is possible that our grandchildren will look at us in wonder and say: "you mean you used to listen to exactly the same thing over and over again?"

With best wishes,

Pete

[EgAD]

I wish you all the best with your endeavors pete and I do believe like eno that there is a definite place for it.
but trust me when I say that if I couldn't listen to some of the great music that we all know and love repeatedly i would have chopped off my ears long ago, with all of the crap rap, crap rock and crap electronic music that permeates seemingly everywhere due to our lack of musical integrity as a whole, i would sorely miss the opportunity to listen to bob marley, the beatles, orbital, oval, james taylor, Marvin Gaye, Grandmaster flash and the furious five,stevie wonder and so many other countless inspirations and trust me also when I say that I wouldn't want to ever be one of those people thinking that listening to an earlier recorded piece of music is strange.
to me enos vision sounds more like the Musicacolypes.

[impete]

Well, I guess you're right. But it makes for an thought-provoking thread, you must admit.

All the best,

Pete

[dj superflat]

ego, why so defensive about this? no one's trying to get rid of old timey actually played music. enjoy what you like, just don't claim what others are interested in isn't valid musically/artistically (this has been the silly rallying cry of the old guard for ages (what's this? horns with strings? guitar through an amp? absurd!)).