Let's all contemplate Fruity Loops

[pulsoc]

here's more fuel to the fire

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2008/03/2 ... quite-all/

The comments are worth reading too

[mikemc]

Apologies if I'm covering something that has come up before, and I'm not intending to have a go at Ableton. But looking at reviews of previous versions from magazines/online you can see that the main focus has been adding DAW features. I hope version 8 redresses the balance because it would be a shame for Live's core 'unique selling point' to get lost.

I think this what the creators of Live (as opposed to the makers that may or may not know not what they made) intend: that the essential thrust of Live is to bring the musical production experience onstage, to generate a *full blown work of produced music in front of the audience's ears*, complete, like the moment of victory in which Pegasus springs forth fully formed and gloriously winged from the severed head of Medusa.

Fruity Loops does not intend this, and it's a pretty good tool for making produced music a piece at a time, then you can 'slicing that up later' using the playlists feature thingie.

[mdk]

you should get a job in audio software marketing mike.

ABLETON LIVE : the moment of victory in which Pegasus springs forth fully formed and gloriously winged from the severed head of Medusa. only 749 pounds.

(The 'angels and trumpets announcing the arrival of pegasus' instruments collection available seperately, only 300 pounds sterling)

FRUITYLOOPER STUDIO: it's a pretty good tool for making produced music a piece at a time, then you can 'slicing that up later' using the playlists feature thingie. about 32 pence, or 500 nectar points.

(Also includes over 2 million other thingies included for free)

[headquest]

Another Live vs. Fruity observation:

With Ableton, the core programme is the genius part, while the add-ons are <cough> not for everyone.

With Fruity the opposite seems true - the core app is a bit of a mess to work in (unless you really want to limit yourself to pattern based soft synth music), but some of the add-ons (e.g. Sytrus, Morphine, Maximus) are awesome.

[forge]

Another Live vs. Fruity observation:

With Ableton, the core programme is the genius part, while the add-ons are <cough> not for everyone.

With Fruity the opposite seems true - the core app is a bit of a mess to work in (unless you really want to limit yourself to pattern based soft synth music), but some of the add-ons (e.g. Sytrus, Morphine, Maximus) are awesome.

yeah I think you've got it in a nutshell

now when Live really fully takes advantage of it's genius core app it will be perfection

[mikemc]

you should get a job in audio software marketing mike.

ABLETON LIVE : the moment of victory in which Pegasus springs forth fully formed and gloriously winged from the severed head of Medusa. only 749 pounds.

(The 'angels and trumpets announcing the arrival of pegasus' instruments collection available seperately, only 300 pounds sterling)

FRUITYLOOPER STUDIO: it's a pretty good tool for making produced music a piece at a time, then you can 'slicing that up later' using the playlists feature thingie. about 32 pence, or 500 nectar points.

(Also includes over 2 million other thingies included for free)

again, I likes em both, Live I just mind-melded with upon contact, and it just gets better and better. FL is more puzzlling, but has good features, also gets better and better and I agree it is a bargain..

the point about competition is maybe better illustrated this way: if you are going to upgrade Live for $US 149 *or* buy FL for $149. it does becomes a choice to wrestle.

[edit] +1 on the FL add-ons, as well.... it is a choice to wrestle with because, depending on how you work, when you consider FL as VST you are potentially 'upgrading' your capability in Live more significantly than with a Live upgrade.

[edit edit] one more observation-- as your 'base DAW tool' choice, no contest: the stuff you do in Live, you can perform Live, you can 'take it to the next level' as a musical project. More difficult to do with FL as a foundation.

[andydes]

I think part of the reason that ableton seem to be adding more DAW features rather than Live ones, is that there's simply more lacking in this area. There's also no other software to compare to, so many people look for the features that they are used to using and want to know why Live can't do them.

Of course there are a couple of obvious live features that we'd all like to see, such as >128 paramter control and session view automation, but my understanding is that adding these features requires a major rewrite and in the case of automation a bit of a rethink. I'm sure that Ableton is working on it. Fingers crossed for version 8.

Other DAW features that people are suggesting, I believe could be added in a way that would benefit session view as well as arrangement. eg. group tracks could be used to lauch and stop groups of clips in session.

I don't think there always has to be a big distinction between DAW features and live features.

[forge]

the problem with fruity is that it is packed full of great things that I just cant bring myself to use. Every time they do an update I download it, sometimes it sits in my Firefox downloads list for a few days/weeks until I remember it's there then install it, I load it up, have a look around the menus, load one or two plug-ins, say "wow that looks pretty cool', go to do something, remember nothing is where I expect it to be or how I expect it to work, get the hump and close it

I guess the problem is it just doesn't offer anything I actually need enough to bother with the bizarre way of working

some things click with you, and others dont

[forge]

I think part of the reason that ableton seem to be adding more DAW features rather than Live ones, is that there's simply more lacking in this area. There's also no other software to compare to, so many people look for the features that they are used to using and want to know why Live can't do them.

Of course there are a couple of obvious live features that we'd all like to see, such as >128 paramter control and session view automation, but my understanding is that adding these features requires a major rewrite and in the case of automation a bit of a rethink. I'm sure that Ableton is working on it. Fingers crossed for version 8.

Other DAW features that people are suggesting, I believe could be added in a way that would benefit session view as well as arrangement. eg. group tracks could be used to lauch and stop groups of clips in session.

I don't think there always has to be a big distinction between DAW features and live features.

yeah I think you're pretty much on the money there

some ideas on group tracks: http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 957#662957

[mikemc]

the problem with fruity is that it is packed full of great things that I just cant bring myself to use. Every time they do an update I download it, sometimes it sits in my Firefox downloads list for a few days/weeks until I remember it's there then install it, I load it up, have a look around the menus, load one or two plug-ins, say "wow that looks pretty cool', go to do something, remember nothing is where I expect it to be or how I expect it to work, get the hump and close it

I guess the problem is it just doesn't offer anything I actually need enough to bother with the bizarre way of working

some things click with you, and others dont

+273, especially "...remember nothing is where I expect it to be or how I expect it to work, get the hump and close it".

[thefool]

The only real thing i miss is the automation curves in fl

[forge]

I've also found it to be buggy and unstable - and I HATE the way rewire/VST windows are switched - what the hell is wrong with ALT+TAB??? You do that and get the little rectangle with the circle on it - at least that's how it used to be

[mikemc]

I've also found it to be buggy and unstable - and I HATE the way rewire/VST windows are switched

absolutely it is fraught with peril, you switch between windows pushing the button that does... not... make sense to push, and if not there is an awful kawhop clunk.

[dab]

I use both, Live and FL, sometimes rewired works great for me. They both excel at different things. Its very easy to make loops in Fl then bring them in as Live clips. The little extra FLStudio cost me as compared to Live was well worth it.

dab

[mikemc]

all this contemplation leads me to a Live wish:

That new feature upgrades to the various effects and instruments could be downloaded from time to time outside of the normal full system release cycle.